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Sheep or Goat?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Apr 15, 2019.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    There is no son in chapter 34 and the sheep God is speaking about are Jews who have been misled by the priest.
    MB
     
    #61 MB, Apr 17, 2019
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I notice the quotes used here have no scriptural support. The one by Owen is misunderstood.
     
    #62 Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2019
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No goats, lost sheep.
    You suggest the Son is not here in Ezk.34?
    God says He Himself is going to seek and Save His sheep.
    So who came to seek and save His sheep?
    I am going to suggest it was indeed God the Son.
    As much as you try and resist the teaching it is right here plain as day.
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Lost sheep that belong to Jesus get saved, then they are saved sheep.
    Jesus is not willing that anyone of them perish2 pet3:9
     
    #64 Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2019
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Really. We did not get the memo on that. Do you have a source that gives scriptural support for your statement?
     
    #65 Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2019
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I noticed that some offered a quote from a Puritan. I know how much they share a love of reformed and puritan teaching,however even trusted guides must be checked by making sure they have scripture to support their words
     
    #66 Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2019
  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You miss the point I was making. Matthew 25 deals with the final judgment when the goats (unsaved) are separated from the sheep (saved). The question is whether unsaved people were at any time goats? That they were unsaved and children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) is not in question. In answer to the question as to whether unsaved people were at any time goats, look at the following passage:

    The sheep are those for whom the Good Shepherd has laid down His life (v. 17). The Good Shepherd knows His sheep and they know Him. He knows them (v. 14) because He calls them by name (v. 3). In short, the sheep are the Elect, because they are those whom the Good Shepherd has called. This is why sheep can never be goats. There are godly men who believe sheep are goats before they respond to the Shepherd's call but I believe the text declares such views wrong.
     
    #67 Reformed, Apr 17, 2019
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I did not see that. Did Yeshua1 quote from a Puritan?
     
    #68 Reformed, Apr 17, 2019
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No it was the puritan loving Jerome who offered a link, I will repost it so you can see lol
     
    #69 Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2019
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Do you recommend his works? Are they a good read?
     
    #70 Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2019
  11. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Oh, no need.
     
    #71 Reformed, Apr 17, 2019
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of were born into the Kingdom of Satan, with sin natures, would that not make all of us goats before salvation?
     
    #72 Yeshua1, Apr 17, 2019
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Bible states that all of us were born sinners, in the Kingdom of Satan, so thus goats, correct?
     
    #73 Yeshua1, Apr 17, 2019
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    If "sheep" is synonymous with "elect" and "goats" synonymous with non-elect then sheep have always been sheep and goats always goats.

    However, if "sheep" is synonymous with a redeemed NATURE and "goats" synonymous with an unredeemed NATURE then "we were children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS" and have been changed from unredeemed to redeemed in nature.
     
    #74 The Biblicist, Apr 17, 2019
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  15. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    No. It makes us unsaved prior to salvation.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #75 Reformed, Apr 17, 2019
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  16. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The Bible never refers to the unsaved as goats apart from the final judgment. However, the elect are referred to as sheep. Even if a future sheep has yet to be converted he is not a goat. That category does not exist except in the eschaton. Go back and read the passage I quoted from Matthew 25.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #76 Reformed, Apr 17, 2019
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  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    prior to salvation we are unsaved.
     
    #77 The Biblicist, Apr 17, 2019
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    seem to be saying the same thing. If "sheep" is synonymous with "elect" then the elect are "sheep" both prior to and after experiential salvation.

    If "goat" are non-elect or not chosen "to" salvation then damnation is the only other alternative.
     
    #78 The Biblicist, Apr 17, 2019
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  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Yeah. That is what I said. :)

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #79 Reformed, Apr 17, 2019
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    My sheep have been chosen, the sheep usually refers to lost mankind, and "of My sheep" refers to lost mankind that are open and receptive to God's word.

    Why is this so hard? Lost sheep that Jesus saves then belong to Jesus. Before they are given to Christ, they were "of My sheep."

    In summary, The sheep = fallen mankind; of My sheep = those of fallen mankind that are open and receptive to God's word; and My sheep = those of My sheep that were given to Christ.
     
    #80 Van, Apr 17, 2019
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