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Sheep or Goat?

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M

MB

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Iconoclast said:
The other day someone on a thread made the statement that we are all goats,
but some get "changed into Sheep".
In Ezkiel 34 we see a description of the Great Shepherd,, seeking and saving His sheep.

It does not mention goats being changed into sheep at all .
Scripture does mention the sheep and goat judgment, but I see no support for a goat turning into a sheep. Does anyone support this idea, and if so do you want to offer a scripture that shows this?

It seems clear the sheep of Ezk. 34 are the children given by the Father to the Son.
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There is no son in chapter 34 and the sheep God is speaking about are Jews who have been misled by the priest.
MB
 
I

Iconoclast

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MB said:
There is no son in chapter 34 and the sheep God is speaking about are Jews who have been misled by the priest.
MB
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No goats, lost sheep.
You suggest the Son is not here in Ezk.34?
God says He Himself is going to seek and Save His sheep.
So who came to seek and save His sheep?
I am going to suggest it was indeed God the Son.
As much as you try and resist the teaching it is right here plain as day.
 
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I

Iconoclast

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Van said:
Spot on! No one is a goat. We are either lost or saved. We start out lost, and then we are saved.
We start out not a chosen people, then we are a chosen people.
We start out not having obtained mercy, then we obtain mercy.
Redemption occurs when we are transferred into Christ and His kingdom.
Redemption occurs when we are given to Christ.
Redemption occurs when we are spiritually baptized into Christ and therefore into Christ's death.
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Lost sheep that belong to Jesus get saved, then they are saved sheep.
Jesus is not willing that anyone of them perish2 pet3:9
 
I

Iconoclast

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I noticed that some offered a quote from a Puritan. I know how much they share a love of reformed and puritan teaching,however even trusted guides must be checked by making sure they have scripture to support their words
 
Reformed

Reformed

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Yeshua1 said:
Were we before salvation lost sinners, and dead and dumb to Christ, in our own sin states?
Before salvation happens to any of us in real time, are getting saved, correct? not lost and thus goats, who were chosen and elected unto becoming changed into his sheep?
We were not eternally justified nad saved
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You miss the point I was making. Matthew 25 deals with the final judgment when the goats (unsaved) are separated from the sheep (saved). The question is whether unsaved people were at any time goats? That they were unsaved and children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) is not in question. In answer to the question as to whether unsaved people were at any time goats, look at the following passage:

John 10:1-18 said:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” (emphasis mine)
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The sheep are those for whom the Good Shepherd has laid down His life (v. 17). The Good Shepherd knows His sheep and they know Him. He knows them (v. 14) because He calls them by name (v. 3). In short, the sheep are the Elect, because they are those whom the Good Shepherd has called. This is why sheep can never be goats. There are godly men who believe sheep are goats before they respond to the Shepherd's call but I believe the text declares such views wrong.
 
Reformed

Reformed

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Iconoclast said:
I noticed that some offered a quote from a Puritan. I know how much they share a love of reformed and puritan teaching,however even trusted guides must be checked by making sure they have scripture to support their words
Click to expand...
I did not see that. Did Yeshua1 quote from a Puritan?
 
I

Iconoclast

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Jerome said:
Bro. Yeshua1/DaChaser1/JesusFan, it seems evangelistic Calvinists like yourself understand this:

Monergism Classic Essays and Articles - Thomas Adams, "A Diagnosis"

"...Pray we that the deceived may find their errors, correct their opinions, and submit their judgments and affections to the rule of truth. Yea, that the wandering sheep, yea, that those who are yet goats may become sheep, and be brought into one fold, under one shepherd. Whiles they continue weeds there is small hope. Yet Paul was once a tare, who after proved good wheat, and is now in the garner of heaven. Recte dicitur glacialem nivem calidam ease non posse; nullo enim pacto quamdiu nix est, calida esse potest, —It is truly said that the frozen snow, can by no means be made hot; for so long as it is snow, and frozen, it will not be warmed. Yet if that snow be melted, the liquid may be made hot. God, that is able to turn a stony heart into a heart of flesh, work this change upon them; unite all our hearts to himself..."

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals - Bio of Thomas Adams (1583-1652):

Meet a Puritan: Thomas Adams
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Do you recommend his works? Are they a good read?
 
Y

Yeshua1

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Reformed said:
You miss the point I was making. Matthew 25 deals with the final judgment when the goats (unsaved) are separated from the sheep (saved). The question is whether unsaved people were at any time goats? That they were unsaved and children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) is not in question. In answer to the question as to whether unsaved people were at any time goats, look at the following passage:



The sheep are those for whom the Good Shepherd has laid down His life (v. 17). The Good Shepherd knows His sheep and they know Him. He knows them (v. 14) because He calls them by name (v. 3). In short, the sheep are the Elect, because they are those whom the Good Shepherd has called. This is why sheep can never be goats. There are godly men who believe sheep are goats before they respond to the Shepherd's call but I believe the text declares such views wrong.
Click to expand...
All of were born into the Kingdom of Satan, with sin natures, would that not make all of us goats before salvation?
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

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Iconoclast said:
The other day someone on a thread made the statement that we are all goats,
but some get "changed into Sheep".
In Ezkiel 34 we see a description of the Great Shepherd,, seeking and saving His sheep.

It does not mention goats being changed into sheep at all .
Scripture does mention the sheep and goat judgment, but I see no support for a goat turning into a sheep. Does anyone support this idea, and if so do you want to offer a scripture that shows this?

It seems clear the sheep of Ezk. 34 are the children given by the Father to the Son.
'
Click to expand...
If "sheep" is synonymous with "elect" and "goats" synonymous with non-elect then sheep have always been sheep and goats always goats.

However, if "sheep" is synonymous with a redeemed NATURE and "goats" synonymous with an unredeemed NATURE then "we were children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS" and have been changed from unredeemed to redeemed in nature.
 
Reformed

Reformed

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Yeshua1 said:
The Bible states that all of us were born sinners, in the Kingdom of Satan, so thus goats, correct?
Click to expand...
The Bible never refers to the unsaved as goats apart from the final judgment. However, the elect are referred to as sheep. Even if a future sheep has yet to be converted he is not a goat. That category does not exist except in the eschaton. Go back and read the passage I quoted from Matthew 25.

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The Biblicist

The Biblicist

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Reformed said:
The Bible never refers to the unsaved as goats apart from the final judgment. However, the elect are referred to as sheep. Even if a future sheep has yet to be converted he is not a goat. That category does not exist except in the eschaton. Go back and read the passage I quoted from Matthew 25.

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seem to be saying the same thing. If "sheep" is synonymous with "elect" then the elect are "sheep" both prior to and after experiential salvation.

If "goat" are non-elect or not chosen "to" salvation then damnation is the only other alternative.
 
V

Van

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My sheep have been chosen, the sheep usually refers to lost mankind, and "of My sheep" refers to lost mankind that are open and receptive to God's word.

Lost sheep that belong to Jesus get saved, then they are saved sheep.
Jesus is not willing that anyone of them perish 2 Peter 3:9
Click to expand...

Why is this so hard? Lost sheep that Jesus saves then belong to Jesus. Before they are given to Christ, they were "of My sheep."

In summary, The sheep = fallen mankind; of My sheep = those of fallen mankind that are open and receptive to God's word; and My sheep = those of My sheep that were given to Christ.
 
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