Thank you for this helpful recap, Reformed. It is always refreshing to see the care God has for His own and walking through it simply but clearly helps keep the main thing as the main thing.
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Sheep or Goat?
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Without Christ, both goats and sheep are lost. The only difference is that lost sheep are elect because sheep are always elect. They are sheep of another fold (John 10) and will eventually come to faith. Goats will not.
Yes, but still see the sheep and goat as exactly same standing before God, lost, until salvation actually happens in this real time!
Deflection on display, the kingdom of His Son is Christ. The King of Kings.
Yet another "taint so" post, referring to a "failed thread" which is just another bogus claim.
Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the fallen can at times seek the kingdom, and not be compelled by "irresistible" grace. No one is a goat, the sheep usually refers to fallen mankind, of My sheep refers to those of fallen mankind who are open and receptive to God's word, and My sheep refers to those made spotless by the blood of the Lamb.
Matthew 23:13 demonstrates your expansion of 1 Corinthians 2:14 to include "all things" rather than just spiritual solid food (meat) is bogus. The men of Matthew 23:13 were "of His sheep" in the process of entering the kingdom.
From William Hendricksen Commentary on the Gospel of John, pg 122
Very clearly, people cannot make themselves sheep[6:39,44,10:29]; sheep do not hear a voice unless that voice has gone forth first of all, and sheep do not follow unless the shepherd has first pushed them out of the fold and has gone on ahead of them[10:3,4].
The sheep are not passive. Indeed not! They listen; they follow. But the action results from the gift.
They themselves are the gift of the Father to The son. That thought is stressed in this very context.[vs29]
In His Commentary on Mt 25, pg 888;
It is surely wonderful and comforting to observe that before the good deeds of the sheep are mentioned[35,36] emphasis is first of all placed on the fact that the basis of their salvation, hence also of these good deeds, is their first having been chosen from eternity: The kingdom has been prepared for them, and not just recently, but from the founding of [or the foundation of] the world.
Whether the phrase [from, etc.]is used, or before, etc. [Eph1:4]., the result is the same" from eternity"
The good pleasure of God Triune, His sovereign grace, is the foundation of their salvation.
Very clearly, people cannot make themselves sheep[6:39,44,10:29]; sheep do not hear a voice unless that voice has gone forth first of all, and sheep do not follow unless the shepherd has first pushed them out of the fold and has gone on ahead of them[10:3,4].
The sheep are not passive. Indeed not! They listen; they follow. But the action results from the gift.
They themselves are the gift of the Father to The son. That thought is stressed in this very context.[vs29]
In His Commentary on Mt 25, pg 888;
It is surely wonderful and comforting to observe that before the good deeds of the sheep are mentioned[35,36] emphasis is first of all placed on the fact that the basis of their salvation, hence also of these good deeds, is their first having been chosen from eternity: The kingdom has been prepared for them, and not just recently, but from the founding of [or the foundation of] the world.
Whether the phrase [from, etc.]is used, or before, etc. [Eph1:4]., the result is the same" from eternity"
The good pleasure of God Triune, His sovereign grace, is the foundation of their salvation.
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Before they were saved, are not both sheep and goats spiritually dead in their sin natures?
Always repeating the same questions, but never answering questions.
Did God formulate His Redemption plan before creation? Yes
Did God choose His Redeemer before creation? Yes
Did God choose us in Him corporately before creation? Yes
Did we live not as a chosen people during our lifetime? Yes
Therefore God chose us individually during our lifetime after He credited our faith as righteousness.
Otherwise our faith would not have provided the access to the grace in which we stand.
Expected responses: (1) None,
(2) Change of subject
(3) Taint so
Already answered by The Biblicist in a previous thread and long ago by the vaunted 1689 London Baptist Assembly:
Indeed the 1689 London Baptist Assembly had to address what The Biblicist has termed "this confusion between purpose and reality, the mother of many false doctrines":
p. 14, A Narrative of the Proceeding of the General Assembly (London, 1689)
"the reconciliation, justification, and adoption of believers, are infallibly secured by the gracious purpose of God, and merit of Jesus Christ. Yet none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, 11. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12."
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Yeshua1 replying to The Biblicist's position on this:
Daniel Parker
"Daniel Parker (January 29, 1781 – December 3, 1844) was an early American leader in the Primitive Baptist Church in the Southern United States....As an elder, Parker led a group who separated from that church and formed the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists."
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists • Hyper-Calvinism
"Only a minuscule minority of Primitive Baptists adhere to the Two-Seed doctrine....Parker taught that all persons are either of the "good seed" of God or of the "bad seed"of Satan...and were predestined that way from the beginning....Parker spread his "two seeds" far and wide, and a goodly number of the "anti-missions" movement accepted his doctrine, though it never achieved anything near majority status....The Two-Seed churches were often connected with the Primitive Baptists and seem to have been so until late in the 19th century. By that time, most Primitive Baptists had excluded the "Two-Seeders" for holding heretical doctrines....The Two-Seed theological stance is known in some circles as Hyper-Calvinism"
Daniel Parker
"Daniel Parker (January 29, 1781 – December 3, 1844) was an early American leader in the Primitive Baptist Church in the Southern United States....As an elder, Parker led a group who separated from that church and formed the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists."
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists • Hyper-Calvinism
"Only a minuscule minority of Primitive Baptists adhere to the Two-Seed doctrine....Parker taught that all persons are either of the "good seed" of God or of the "bad seed"of Satan...and were predestined that way from the beginning....Parker spread his "two seeds" far and wide, and a goodly number of the "anti-missions" movement accepted his doctrine, though it never achieved anything near majority status....The Two-Seed churches were often connected with the Primitive Baptists and seem to have been so until late in the 19th century. By that time, most Primitive Baptists had excluded the "Two-Seeders" for holding heretical doctrines....The Two-Seed theological stance is known in some circles as Hyper-Calvinism"
Did all men die in Adam?
Please clarify something for me. You don't believe that "sheep" have a saved nature prior to their experience with the new birth - correct? You believe they have the same lost nature as the "goat"? Correct? Therefore, your view of "sheep" versus "goat' is merely elect versus non-elect in view of ultimate judgment? Correct?
Hello B,
Yes, I lean to the Infralapsarian position.The lamb being slain from the foundation of the world.
All died in Adam. Eph2:1-3...even as others..
Vs 4
.But God who is rich in Mercy..
Did God formulate His Redemption plan before creation? Yes
Did God choose His Redeemer before creation? Yes
Did God choose us in Him corporately before creation? Yes
Did we live not as a chosen people during our lifetime? Yes
Therefore God chose us individually during our lifetime after He credited our faith as righteousness.
Otherwise our faith would not have provided the access to the grace in which we stand.
Expected responses: (1) None,
(2) Change of subject
(3) Taint so
Actual Response: (1) None
Did God choose His Redeemer before creation? Yes
Did God choose us in Him corporately before creation? Yes
Did we live not as a chosen people during our lifetime? Yes
Therefore God chose us individually during our lifetime after He credited our faith as righteousness.
Otherwise our faith would not have provided the access to the grace in which we stand.
Expected responses: (1) None,
(2) Change of subject
(3) Taint so
Actual Response: (1) None
Nonsense! Paul uses personal pronouns rather than abstract nouns. God "knew" and "sanctified" and "ordained" Jeremiah before he formed him in the womb - not some corporate Jeremiah (Jer. 1:5). None of this is possible without first God CHOOSING him to do so.
They were chosen "to" salvation and thus were the elect in God's purpose and plan while still in an unregenerate condition, and thus elect - sheep but "lost" sheep.
The prepositional phrases, the accusative noun in the first prepositional phrase in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 completely and utterly repudiates your view.
The grace where in they stand is contextually defined as "justification" as that is the whole previous chapter and introduction in 5:1. However, it is the grace in election (Rom. 11:5) that obtains regeneration by the Spirit or "sanctification by the Spirit" previous to "faith" (2 Thes. 2:13).
Sorry, to make you wrong again, and again and again!
Sorry to boil down your false arguments to a manageable size.
The "us" in Ephesians 1:4 refers to those already in Christ, and had therefore been redeemed individually during their lifetime as well as corporately before creation. The grammar argument is sheer nonsense , and you wrong again.
No they were chosen for salvation in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. If want to argue with Dr. Dan Wallace, go to it.
No, the grace in which we stand is the grace of salvation which includes justification.
Either we were chosen individually before creation and thus never lived not as a chosen people or we were chosen corporately before creation, and therefore lived not as a chosen people before we obtained mercy through faith by grace.
For those who are objective they can see your response is complete nonsense as you have not dealt with anything I said in the previous post. Somehow you imagine that if you keep denying something it makes it so. Sorry, that is not the way it works.
My pleasure as Dr. Wallace is not infallible or inspired. However, "chosen for salvation" is precisely my point as the prepositional phrase uses the accusative case noun showing that the direct object of choosing is salvation. The direct object is not faith - sorry!
Again, for objective readers this is a no-brainer as the whole subject of Romans 4:1 is the doctrine of justification and 5:1 begins with "therefore" drawing a conclusion on his doctrine of justification not "salvation" in general but justification in specific. Again, you are simply ignoring the obvious.
Do you really believe what you are saying is rational? We don't have to live or exist before creation to be "in Christ" with regard to God's eternal purpose. Purpose always precedes reality. And if purposed prior to our existence then we are elect by purpose even before we are saved in time. No brainer again!
Note the order in Romans 8:28 (1) God's purpose - v. 28; (2) foreknowledge - v. 29; (4) predestination; (5) justification; (6) glorification.
God has a blue print first, thus he foreknows because he for-planned and thus all things with regard to his elect (v. 32) are predetermined. Just that simple.
Dr. Wallace knows the grammar of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and for you to challenge his translation is absurd.
Sorry but salvation includes justification.
And again, individual election before creation is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. Saying we were chosen but did not know we were chosen means scripture can say we were not chosen when we were is yet another absurd argument.
The order in Romans 8:28-30 agrees with my view.
[/QUOTE]
Nothing you have reported about Dr. Wallace's view conflicts with my grammatical anaylsis of that passage. "chosen to/for salvation" is a legitimate translation. However, nothing you or Dr. Wallace can say that changes the grammatical fact that the term translated "salvation" is found in the accusative case - the well known case of termination of action that is commonly used for the direct object and in this text is its obvious use. Nothing you or Dr. Wallace can say that changes the grammatical fact that "through (dia) sanctification by the Spirit and belief of the truth" modifies "salvation."
I presented hard contextual evidence it refers to justification not salvation in general, and so where is your evidence to the contrary?????? None! Zilch, Nada!
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First, this text is found in the context of experiential salvation rather than God's eternal purpose of salvation. Second, He is describing their current condition as opposed to their previous condition. So, you are forcing into the text your own opinions which are totally false.
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 and 2 Pet. 1:10 both clearly teach what you claim is aburd! Both teach that a current child of God can know they are of God's elect which means that a child of God can either be ignornat of their election or can have doubt about their election.
You know very well the order repudiates your view. Purpose stands first (v. 28) just as a blue print stands first with a builder of a house which explains foreknowledge of every door, window, light socket, every aspect of that house BEFORE it is built and thus election according to the foreknowledge of God rests upon God's eternal purpose not merely as some bystander who looks into a crystal ball and foresees faith and then elects which is irrational as faith is a gift of God rather than something merely foreseen in sinners.
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