Sheep or Goat?

[JonC]

The OP. Was focused on are goats made into sheep as a poster had offered.
I believe scripture indicates the sheep were given to Jesus in what is referred to as the Covenant of Redemption. The number of the sheep is eternally fixed.
I can only suppose the poster was trying to avoid this reality with a novelty not found in scripture.
If he or she notices the thread perhaps they could clarify what they meant.

Yea. I think the OP makes it difficult to stick with a strictly biblical context as it applies an image God applies to "that day" to "this day".

We cannot speak of "goats" becoming "sheep" because "goats" are those found not to be "in Christ" "on that day" and at Judgment is too late to convert.

All we can speak of are lost becoming saved and those saved being the "sheep" for whom Christ died.

 

[church mouse guy]

Well of course you can find a verse that a lost person can be saved.
Jesus came to seek and save His lost sheep.
The OP.was about how someone posted saying a goat can become a sheep.
I know of any such teaching.
Now in John 10:26 Jesus said to those Jews ...YOU believe not You are not my sheep. DO you see what that verse says?

That's a foolish question because men are not literally either animal and they are two different species. Therefore the language is figurative.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's a foolish question because men are not literally either animal and they are two different species. Therefore the language is figurative.

If Jesus gave the scriptures in this form, I do not think it makes the question foolish.
I think Jesus made it very simple.
God has sheep who are His Flock...see Exk 34.it speaks of My sheep, My Flock.
They are scattered.
He vows to seek and save them.
Jesus ascribes those words to Himself. Lk19:10
John 10 confirms the purpose of the Son

Notice no where does He say I lay down my life for the goats. He knows exactly who He came for, He seeks and saves everyone of them.
Notice in Ezk 34:31...the sheep are mentioned as being men so that is not a mystery we need to grasp it.

 

[Van]

Not according to Ezk34 . Not according to John 10,26, and 27..you believe not BECAUSE you are not MY SHEEP, MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, I KNOW THEM ,THEY FOLLOW ME.

Once again you misrepresent scripture.

John 10:26 refers to those not "of My sheep," rather than your version "....you are not MY Sheep...."

 

[Van]

Look, everyone knows what you are attempting, to assert scripture says what it does not say.
It does not say the lost are goats.
People who are open and receptive to God can believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

Once again you misrepresent scripture.

John 10:26 refers to those not "of My sheep," rather than your version "....you are not MY Sheep...."

You are not reading verse 26 correctly...you believe not Because...see it?
Because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, I know them, they follow me...how are missing this?

 

[Iconoclast]

Look, everyone knows what you are attempting, to assert scripture says what it does not say.
It does not say the lost are goats.
People who are open and receptive to God can believe.

I do not think you have read the mt:25 passage that has been offer.ed...the goats go into second death.
Those goats are.lost for sure . Does anyone agree with van on this?

 

[Van]

You are not reading verse 26 correctly...you believe not Because...see it?
Because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, I know them, they follow me...how are missing this?

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You continue to misrepresent scripture. Does anyone else not see "of My sheep?"

 

[Van]

I do not think you have read the mt:25 passage that has been offer.ed...the goats go into second death.
Those goats are.lost for sure . Does anyone agree with van on this?

Once again, here is the text: The actual people separated are in RED, and the illustration of the action is in green.

32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

No one is said to be a goat, the lost and the saved will be separated as a shepherd would separate sheep from goats.

 

[church mouse guy]

If Jesus gave the scriptures in this form, I do not think it makes the question foolish.
I think Jesus made it very simple.
God has sheep who are His Flock...see Exk 34.it speaks of My sheep, My Flock.
They are scattered.
He vows to seek and save them.
Jesus ascribes those words to Himself. Lk19:10
John 10 confirms the purpose of the Son

Notice no where does He say I lay down my life for the goats. He knows exactly who He came for, He seeks and saves everyone of them.
Notice in Ezk 34:31...the sheep are mentioned as being men so that is not a mystery we need to grasp it.

If Christians are compared to sheep, that does not mean that they are sheep. Don't let anyone pull the wool over your eyes!

 

[Iconoclast]

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You continue to misrepresent scripture. Does anyone else not see "of My sheep?"

I think they see. .but you believe not,Because,
Before they were are not of my sheep.
Try highlighting in red that part of the verse and maybe it will bring some clarity for you.

 

[Yeshua1]

The other day someone on a thread made the statement that we are all goats,
but some get "changed into Sheep".
In Ezkiel 34 we see a description of the Great Shepherd,, seeking and saving His sheep.

It does not mention goats being changed into sheep at all .
Scripture does mention the sheep and goat judgment, but I see no support for a goat turning into a sheep. Does anyone support this idea, and if so do you want to offer a scripture that shows this?

It seems clear the sheep of Ezk. 34 are the children given by the Father to the Son.
'

All of us when lost sinners would be goats, and God saving us made us into the Sheep!

 

[Van]

I think they see. .but you believe not,Because,
Before they were are not of my sheep.
Try highlighting in red that part of the verse and maybe it will bring some clarity for you.

This should not be this difficult.

The verse did not say you do not believe because you are not My sheep.
The verse says you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

I did not misrepresent the verse, you did so you need clarity not me.

 

[Iconoclast]

All of us when lost sinners would be goats, and God saving us made us into the Sheep!

No

 

[Reformed]

All of us when lost sinners would be goats, and God saving us made us into the Sheep!

That is incorrect. The Elect can never be goats, not even hypothetically.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Van]

No

Spot on! No one is a goat. We are either lost or saved. We start out lost, and then we are saved.
We start out not a chosen people, then we are a chosen people.
We start out not having obtained mercy, then we obtain mercy.
Redemption occurs when we are transferred into Christ and His kingdom.
Redemption occurs when we are given to Christ.
Redemption occurs when we are spiritually baptized into Christ and therefore into Christ's death.

 

[Jerome]

All of us when lost sinners would be goats, and God saving us made us into the Sheep!

Bro. Yeshua1/DaChaser1/JesusFan, it seems evangelistic Calvinists like yourself understand this:

Monergism Classic Essays and Articles - Thomas Adams, "A Diagnosis"

"...Pray we that the deceived may find their errors, correct their opinions, and submit their judgments and affections to the rule of truth. Yea, that the wandering sheep, yea, that those who are yet goats may become sheep, and be brought into one fold, under one shepherd. Whiles they continue weeds there is small hope. Yet Paul was once a tare, who after proved good wheat, and is now in the garner of heaven. Recte dicitur glacialem nivem calidam ease non posse; nullo enim pacto quamdiu nix est, calida esse potest, —It is truly said that the frozen snow, can by no means be made hot; for so long as it is snow, and frozen, it will not be warmed. Yet if that snow be melted, the liquid may be made hot. God, that is able to turn a stony heart into a heart of flesh, work this change upon them; unite all our hearts to himself..."

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals - Bio of Thomas Adams (1583-1652):

Meet a Puritan: Thomas Adams

 

[Jerome]

Our own "The Biblicist" in another of these treads:

"We were sheep and children of God according to His eternal purpose, but we are born into this world with a goat nature and a nature like Satan's - enmity and rebellion"

also John Owen, in Of Communion with God the Father (1657) p. 279:

"You know whose Children we are by nature; children of Satan, and of the curse, or of wrath. By the Spirit we are put into another capacity, and are Adopted to be the children of God, inasmuch as by receiving the spirit of our Father, we become the children of our Father. Thence is he called [Rom. 8] v. 15. the Spirit of Adoption."

and William Perkins, in A Golden Chaine (Cambridge: John Legate, 1600), p. 441:

"The second gift is regeneration, whereby a man of a limb of the devil is made a member of Christ, and of a child of Satan (whom every one of us by nature do as lively resemble as any man doth his own parent) is made the child of God."

 

[Yeshua1]

That is incorrect. The Elect can never be goats, not even hypothetically.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Were we before salvation lost sinners, and dead and dumb to Christ, in our own sin states?
Before salvation happens to any of us in real time, are getting saved, correct? not lost and thus goats, who were chosen and elected unto becoming changed into his sheep?
We were not eternally justified nad saved

 

[Yeshua1]

Bro. Yeshua1/DaChaser1/JesusFan, it seems evangelistic Calvinists like yourself understand this:

Monergism Classic Essays and Articles - Thomas Adams, "A Diagnosis"

"...Pray we that the deceived may find their errors, correct their opinions, and submit their judgments and affections to the rule of truth. Yea, that the wandering sheep, yea, that those who are yet goats may become sheep, and be brought into one fold, under one shepherd. Whiles they continue weeds there is small hope. Yet Paul was once a tare, who after proved good wheat, and is now in the garner of heaven. Recte dicitur glacialem nivem calidam ease non posse; nullo enim pacto quamdiu nix est, calida esse potest, —It is truly said that the frozen snow, can by no means be made hot; for so long as it is snow, and frozen, it will not be warmed. Yet if that snow be melted, the liquid may be made hot. God, that is able to turn a stony heart into a heart of flesh, work this change upon them; unite all our hearts to himself..."

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals - Bio of Thomas Adams (1583-1652):

Meet a Puritan: Thomas Adams

That would be traditional Calvinistic viewpoint on this issue!