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Replacement Theology--Heresy?
- Thread starter Tim
- Start date
Even if we assume those in modern Israel(Judah) are descendants of Old Covenant Israel(which they are not) where and who are the ten northern tribes(Israel)?
Which scriptures?
Amazing isn’t it? It usually pops up when one can’t defend their position from scripture. And the ones who scream “heretic” the loudest are the ones who use the least amount of scripture to support their view.
I will be doing this very shortly. We are studying the theology of Paul and his eschatology is one of the topics that is coming up. Fortunately I believe my Pastor will not have the "Jack Hyles" mindset you and your preacher have. If by chance he does I will just turn to scripture and we will see who squirms first.
Do I need to again go over all the verses that you do not take literally?
Why is it you never really have a debate, using scripture as your source, instead of dispie web-sites? You just go around from thread to thread calling people heretics and rarely quote scripture? Is it because you cannot on your own back up your beliefs from scripture? You probably have "The Late Great Planet Earth" next to your computer for quick reference.
Perhaps a definition is in order here.Originally posted by Kiffen:
Regarding the original question, so called "Replacement Theology" is not heresy, no more than dispensational Premill is heresy.
Actualy the veneration of Israel that is found in modern day dispensational Premill is a rather new theology. Historic Premill that the early Fathers believed as well as that of Gill and Spurgeon all saw the Church as not replacing Israel but as the fulfilment of Israel. This is true also in Amill and Postmill theology. Postmill has believed in a spiritual revival among the Jews near the end of time (Charles Hodge Systm Theology) BUT not that they would be separate from the Church.
To say it is antisemitic is just slander and to say it is heresy shows a lack of knowledge of the term. I am always amazed how lightly Baptists used the term heresy.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/heresy?view=uk
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=heresy
And since Replacement Theology both misrepresents God's Word and His intentions toward His beloved Israel, it is a heresy.
Which promises in the OT apply then to the church, and which apply to Isreal?
Do both sides agree that a Isrealite must accept Jesus in order to be saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I agree.
And when Zech. 12:10 is fulfilled upon His return, they will all believe in Him as Savior and Messiah and realize their error. Then as Jesus said they will all say "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Luke 13:35 (which of course has not happen yet).
Grasshopper asks:
God has promised to restore both Judah and Israel.
Source: Scripture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which scriptures?
Didn't you read any of these from page one?
Ex. 4:22
Num. 24:1
Zech. 1:14-15; 2:8; 8:8
Isa. 4:1; 49:14-17; 60:12-14; 61:9; 62; 66:8-10
Deut. 7:6-8,13-15; 15:6
Ezra 3:11
Ps. 105:10; 135:4; 147:19-20
1 Sam. 12:22
Zeph. 3:13-20
Jer. 31:3; 33:9
Hos. 2:19-23
Gen. 17:4-8,19-21
God has promised to restore both Judah and Israel.
Source: Scripture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which scriptures?
Didn't you read any of these from page one?
Ex. 4:22
Num. 24:1
Zech. 1:14-15; 2:8; 8:8
Isa. 4:1; 49:14-17; 60:12-14; 61:9; 62; 66:8-10
Deut. 7:6-8,13-15; 15:6
Ezra 3:11
Ps. 105:10; 135:4; 147:19-20
1 Sam. 12:22
Zeph. 3:13-20
Jer. 31:3; 33:9
Hos. 2:19-23
Gen. 17:4-8,19-21
Tim wrote:
"Romans 11:26. And so That is, in this manner; or when the great abundance of the Gentiles shall be converted, then all Israel shall be saved.
"All Israel" All the Jews. It was a maxim among the Jews that “every Israelite should have part in the future age.” (Grotius.) The apostle applies that maxim to his own purpose; and declares the sense in which it would be
true. He does not mean to say that every Jew of every age would be saved; for he had proved that a large portion of them would be, in his time,
rejected and lost. But the time would come when, as a people, they would be recovered; when the nation would turn to God; and when it could be
said of them that, as a nation, they were restored to the divine favor. It is
not clear that he means that even then every individual of them would be saved, but the body of them; the great mass of the nation would be. Nor is it said when this would be. This is one of the things which “the Father hath
put in his own power;” <440107> Acts 1:7. He has given us the assurance that it shall be done to encourage us in our efforts to save them; and he has concealed the time when it shall be, lest we should relax our efforts, or feel that no exertions were needed to accomplish what must take place at a fixed time.
"Shall be saved" Shall be recovered from their rejection; be restored to the divine favor; become followers of the Messiah, and thus be saved as all other Christians are.
As it is written <235920>Isaiah 59:20. The quotation is not literally made, but the
sense of the passage is preserved. The Hebrew is, “There shall come to Zion a Redeemer, and for those who turn from ungodliness in Jacob.”
There can be no doubt that Isaiah refers here to the times of the gospel.
"Out of Zion" Zion was one of the bills of Jerusalem. On this was built the
city of David. It came thus to denote, in general, the church, or people of
God. And when it is said that the Redeemer should come out of Zion, it means that he should arise among that people, be descended from
themselves, or should not be a foreigner. The Septuagint, however render it, “the Redeemer shall come on account of Zion.” So the Chaldee
paraphrase, and the Latin Vulgate.
"And shall turn away ..." The Hebrew is, “to those forsaking un godliness in Jacob.” The Septuagint has rendered it in the same manner as the apostle." Barnes Notes on the Bible
Chapter 11 is throughout a proof of the denial given in <451101>Romans 11:1.
Paul reminds us that the almost universal unfaithfulness is but a repetition of the days of Elijah. Now as then there is a faithful remnant. The punishment inflicted on the unfaithful has a purpose of mercy for the
Gentiles, and for Israel. Even the cutting off of the unbelieving Jews and the reception of the believing Gentiles open a door of hope that if the Jews believe they will be received by God. As foretold in ancient prophecy, salvation awaits Israel. Chapter 10 ended in the gloom of Israel’s rebellion:
Romans 11 has brought us out into the light of a glorious hope, and leaves us with the notes of an eternal song ringing in our ears." from Joseph Beet – Commentaries on Romans through Philemon
"“So all Israel shall be saved.” The fulfillment of this mournful prophecy is to be with the faithful remnant. The remnant will be gathered
back mainly unconverted (Ezekiel 57). Zachariah tells us two parts shall be cut off, i.e., two-thirds slain in the Tribulation. Finally the surviving third, passing through the fires of a terrible persecution, shall come out triumphant (Dan. 12:10-12), hailing their glorious descending King with shouts of welcome:
“Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.” “Thus all Israel shall be saved” and come to the front of the world, where they stood before Nebuchadnezzar conquered the world and brought the Gentiles to the front.
Thus the remnant of grace, all saved, shall come to the front of the world to lead all nations during the glorious oncoming Millennial Theocracy.
Jerusalem, built out over all the interior highlands of Palestine, located at the juncture of Asia, Africa and Europe, and through the Mediterranean accessible to America, will become the capital of all nations and the joy of the whole earth. In a wonderful and mysterious way the Jews in all lands are now providentially being prepared for the metropolitanship of the
world, when the nations shall beat their swords into plough-shares and their spears into pruning-hooks and learn war no more. If the difficulties of the late Spanish war had been submitted to a committee of sanctified men, both Spanish and American, thoroughly cultured in the laws, institutions and finances of both nations, in a short time they would have settled all the
differences, raised a shout and sent terms of peaceful reconciliation to brother nations. The Jews now stand at the head of the finances, learning and jurisprudence in all nations, really by their money power today ruling
the kings of the earth, thus getting ready to come to the front of the world.
“A Leader shall come out of Zion, and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob.”
When Christ ascended into heaven He was crowned King in Zion. David, His brightest type, was first crowned King of Judah at Hebron; seven and a half years subsequently he was crowned king of all the tribes of Israel at Jerusalem. So, when Christ ascended from His first advent, He was
crowned King of saints at God’s right hand, and when He comes the second time He will be crowned King of kings in all the earth. Doubtless
about the time He shall appear to take up His Bride He will in some way reveal Himself to His people, the Jews, giving an impetus to their speedy conversion. from W. B. Godbey - New Testament Commentary
Albert Barnes wrote:
"Romans 11:26. And so That is, in this manner; or when the great abundance of the Gentiles shall be converted, then all Israel shall be saved.
"All Israel" All the Jews. It was a maxim among the Jews that “every Israelite should have part in the future age.” (Grotius.) The apostle applies that maxim to his own purpose; and declares the sense in which it would be
true. He does not mean to say that every Jew of every age would be saved; for he had proved that a large portion of them would be, in his time,
rejected and lost. But the time would come when, as a people, they would be recovered; when the nation would turn to God; and when it could be
said of them that, as a nation, they were restored to the divine favor. It is
not clear that he means that even then every individual of them would be saved, but the body of them; the great mass of the nation would be. Nor is it said when this would be. This is one of the things which “the Father hath
put in his own power;” <440107> Acts 1:7. He has given us the assurance that it shall be done to encourage us in our efforts to save them; and he has concealed the time when it shall be, lest we should relax our efforts, or feel that no exertions were needed to accomplish what must take place at a fixed time.
"Shall be saved" Shall be recovered from their rejection; be restored to the divine favor; become followers of the Messiah, and thus be saved as all other Christians are.
As it is written <235920>Isaiah 59:20. The quotation is not literally made, but the
sense of the passage is preserved. The Hebrew is, “There shall come to Zion a Redeemer, and for those who turn from ungodliness in Jacob.”
There can be no doubt that Isaiah refers here to the times of the gospel.
"Out of Zion" Zion was one of the bills of Jerusalem. On this was built the
city of David. It came thus to denote, in general, the church, or people of
God. And when it is said that the Redeemer should come out of Zion, it means that he should arise among that people, be descended from
themselves, or should not be a foreigner. The Septuagint, however render it, “the Redeemer shall come on account of Zion.” So the Chaldee
paraphrase, and the Latin Vulgate.
"And shall turn away ..." The Hebrew is, “to those forsaking un godliness in Jacob.” The Septuagint has rendered it in the same manner as the apostle." Barnes Notes on the Bible
Chapter 11 is throughout a proof of the denial given in <451101>Romans 11:1.
Paul reminds us that the almost universal unfaithfulness is but a repetition of the days of Elijah. Now as then there is a faithful remnant. The punishment inflicted on the unfaithful has a purpose of mercy for the
Gentiles, and for Israel. Even the cutting off of the unbelieving Jews and the reception of the believing Gentiles open a door of hope that if the Jews believe they will be received by God. As foretold in ancient prophecy, salvation awaits Israel. Chapter 10 ended in the gloom of Israel’s rebellion:
Romans 11 has brought us out into the light of a glorious hope, and leaves us with the notes of an eternal song ringing in our ears." from Joseph Beet – Commentaries on Romans through Philemon
"“So all Israel shall be saved.” The fulfillment of this mournful prophecy is to be with the faithful remnant. The remnant will be gathered
back mainly unconverted (Ezekiel 57). Zachariah tells us two parts shall be cut off, i.e., two-thirds slain in the Tribulation. Finally the surviving third, passing through the fires of a terrible persecution, shall come out triumphant (Dan. 12:10-12), hailing their glorious descending King with shouts of welcome:
“Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.” “Thus all Israel shall be saved” and come to the front of the world, where they stood before Nebuchadnezzar conquered the world and brought the Gentiles to the front.
Thus the remnant of grace, all saved, shall come to the front of the world to lead all nations during the glorious oncoming Millennial Theocracy.
Jerusalem, built out over all the interior highlands of Palestine, located at the juncture of Asia, Africa and Europe, and through the Mediterranean accessible to America, will become the capital of all nations and the joy of the whole earth. In a wonderful and mysterious way the Jews in all lands are now providentially being prepared for the metropolitanship of the
world, when the nations shall beat their swords into plough-shares and their spears into pruning-hooks and learn war no more. If the difficulties of the late Spanish war had been submitted to a committee of sanctified men, both Spanish and American, thoroughly cultured in the laws, institutions and finances of both nations, in a short time they would have settled all the
differences, raised a shout and sent terms of peaceful reconciliation to brother nations. The Jews now stand at the head of the finances, learning and jurisprudence in all nations, really by their money power today ruling
the kings of the earth, thus getting ready to come to the front of the world.
“A Leader shall come out of Zion, and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob.”
When Christ ascended into heaven He was crowned King in Zion. David, His brightest type, was first crowned King of Judah at Hebron; seven and a half years subsequently he was crowned king of all the tribes of Israel at Jerusalem. So, when Christ ascended from His first advent, He was
crowned King of saints at God’s right hand, and when He comes the second time He will be crowned King of kings in all the earth. Doubtless
about the time He shall appear to take up His Bride He will in some way reveal Himself to His people, the Jews, giving an impetus to their speedy conversion. from W. B. Godbey - New Testament Commentary
Did anyone actually read these before copying them from some dispie web site? Which ones speak of the restoration of Judah and Israel?
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Num 24:1 And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness.
Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Perhaps this is what you're looking for:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So are we living in the New Covenant? Or is it still future too?
Read 2 Cor. 6:16 and tell me who Paul quotes and why.
Does Eze 37:19 refer to the same thing as Jer. 31:31?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Replacement Theology is not a heresy anymore than historical premillennialism, dispensationalism, postmilliennialism, or amillennialism are. I used to think that premillennialism, especially the dispensational brand, was heretical, but I have stopped doing that.
None of us come anywhere near close to being 100% accurate in our interpretation of the Bible of the whole, and even less when it comes to our interpretation of eschatology and other deep subjects of the Bible.
Frankly, I now think that to call heretical an interpretation that someone can clearly make a Biblical case for shows an unChristlike pride on the part of the person making the charge. Such should not exist among brothers and sisters in Christ toward those with whom we disagree.
I think that all of us should henceforth lay down our swords in our eschatological and other doctrinal discussions and try to reason instead of blungeon those with whom we disagree theologically.
None of us come anywhere near close to being 100% accurate in our interpretation of the Bible of the whole, and even less when it comes to our interpretation of eschatology and other deep subjects of the Bible.
Frankly, I now think that to call heretical an interpretation that someone can clearly make a Biblical case for shows an unChristlike pride on the part of the person making the charge. Such should not exist among brothers and sisters in Christ toward those with whom we disagree.
I think that all of us should henceforth lay down our swords in our eschatological and other doctrinal discussions and try to reason instead of blungeon those with whom we disagree theologically.
GH, today's Jews are descendants of the ancient Jews, although there has been quite a bit of "grafting" of other peoples within their ranks.
As for the other tribes, GOD knows who they are. And I wouldn't entirely discount the theory that the descendants of Joseph make up the majority of the British & American people.(No, I am NOT a racist British Israelite.)
As for Scriptural support, just read Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zachariah. I can furnish a more specific list of verses if necessary.
Once again, anyone who discounts the rise of modern Judah is simply making excuses not to believe God's word. Judah did NOT rise by her own power, nor move her capitol to Jerusalem by happenstance.
As for the other tribes, GOD knows who they are. And I wouldn't entirely discount the theory that the descendants of Joseph make up the majority of the British & American people.(No, I am NOT a racist British Israelite.)
As for Scriptural support, just read Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zachariah. I can furnish a more specific list of verses if necessary.
Once again, anyone who discounts the rise of modern Judah is simply making excuses not to believe God's word. Judah did NOT rise by her own power, nor move her capitol to Jerusalem by happenstance.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Once again, anyone who discounts the rise of modern Judah is simply making excuses not to believe God's word. Judah did NOT rise by her own power, nor move her capitol to Jerusalem by happenstance
The existence of Israel is certainly suggestive.
But I disagree with any sort of comment that says that those believing replacement theology are choosing not to believe God.
Many of those who are in favor of replacement see the Isaianic prophecies about restoration as being fulfilled in Jesus - that His ministry represents YHWH's return to Zion. This does represent a plausible, if not compelling alternative to a secular state made up largely of people of eastern European descent after a 2,000 year hiatus.
Replacement theology is NOT a heresy nor is it an attempt to subvert the Bible. It is an attempt (as is the dispensational view on Israel) to interpret honestly the prophetic texts.
The existence of Israel is certainly suggestive.
But I disagree with any sort of comment that says that those believing replacement theology are choosing not to believe God.
Many of those who are in favor of replacement see the Isaianic prophecies about restoration as being fulfilled in Jesus - that His ministry represents YHWH's return to Zion. This does represent a plausible, if not compelling alternative to a secular state made up largely of people of eastern European descent after a 2,000 year hiatus.
Replacement theology is NOT a heresy nor is it an attempt to subvert the Bible. It is an attempt (as is the dispensational view on Israel) to interpret honestly the prophetic texts.
Retoring is very much different than replacing.
I believe that God will restore Israel, as the prophecies state. But the heretical teaching that the Church has replaced Israel actually stems from Roman Catholicism. Wheras we believe that Jerusalem is the Holy City; Catholics believe that it is Rome. Rome has replaced Jerusalem, and Catholicism (Christianity in their eyes) has replaced Judaism. In fact on the first crusade to take Jerusalem in 1096, ordered by Pope Urban II, the Catholics plundered, and massacred both Jews and Muslims alike. Catholicism has a history of anti-semiticism because of its belief in replacement theology (though it hasn't always called it that). It thinks that it is the true and rightful successor to Israel, and that Israel (the Crust-crucifiers) have no right to exist.
The logical outcome of Replacement Theology is that someday Islam will replace "Christianity," or perhaps by that time it will be too late. It may be the church of the Antichrist by that time. With the fires burning in France, and then spreading to Berlin, who knows. This could be Islam's moment?
Folks, where is Jesus in all of your eschatology? What does "I came to fulfill the law" mean to you? After a quick read of the posts has anyone mentioned Galatians 6:16 - who are the Israel of God that Paul mentions? To what extent are Christians heirs with Abraham?
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
