GOD’S GRACE “Holy Covenant” With OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS

Alan Gross · Aug 7, 2019

5.1.1 “Mercy Promised to the fathers”
in GOD’S “Holy Covenant”
WITH OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS (in Luke 1:72).

Adapted from:

DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK IV

THE ACTS OF THE GRACE OF GOD
TOWARDS AND UPON HIS ELECT IN TIME

5.1 The GODHEAD’S EVERLASTING PLAN
and
AGREED COVENANTof ETERNAL SALVATION
EXHIBITED from
GENESIS to REVELATION.
***
5.1
And before we proceed any farther,
I shall just point out:

5.1.1.) The things WHICH AGREE and
are contained within BOTH of the Two Administrations
of the Covenant of Grace
( The Old & New Testaments )

AND, then

5.1.2.) The various things
contained within the Two Administrations
of the Covenant of Grace,
( in The Old & New Testaments )
WHICH MAKE THEM DIFFERENT from ONE ANOTHER.

***

5.1.1. First, The Agreement there is
between the Two Administrations
of the Covenant of Grace,
( in The Old & New Testaments ).
***

5.1.1 a. Both of these Two Administrations
( in The Old & New Testaments )
of The ONE ETERNAL COVENANT of GRACE

Agree in the Efficient Cause,
Who is God.
***
The EVERLASTING Covenant of Grace,
in its Original Constitution in Eternity, is of God,
and therefore it is called GOD’S COVENANT,
having been Made by Him
***
“I have Made a Covenant-
-My Covenant I Will Not Break”
Psalms 89:3,34
***
And whenever any Exhibition
or Manifestation
of this Covenant was Made
to any of the Patriarchs,
in the Old Testament,
as to Abraham, David, etc.

The ETERNAL COVENANT of GRACE
is ascribed to God,

“I Will Make My Covenant
—He has Made with me
an Everlasting Covenant”

(Genesis 17:2 2; Samuel 23:5)
***
So the New Covenant,
or New Administration,
in the New Testament,
of The ETERNAL COVENANT of GRACE,
runs in this form,
“I Will Make a New Covenant”
( in Hebrews 8:8).
...

Salvation is of The Lord.

The Efficient Cause,
of The ONE ETERNAL COVENANT
of The ETERNAL GODHEAD PLANNING, PROVIDING,
and GIVING GRACE in THE PLAN of SALVATION
is God.

agedman · Aug 8, 2019

Just to be clear.

One covenant does not dissolve when another covenant is made.

God's covenants are everlasting for they are bound upon Him who is everlasting.

None of God's covenants are in disagreement, and none are in conflicting positions.

One other matter about a covenant.

A covenant is not a contract such as humankind make in which parties agree upon terms.

Rather, a covenant is a single determination in which only one party is held accountable to keep irregardless of the other parties actions.

In this manner, a covenant is as a human vow.

In the marriage, an unconditional vow is made to God about toward the marriage partner. It is not conditional upon that partner's acceptance, nor if that partner returns such a vow.

Too many in this modern age do not view either covenant or vow as unbreakable, and not determined upon the actions of others.

Dave G · Aug 14, 2019

agedman said:
One covenant does not dissolve when another covenant is made.

The "old testament", or covenant of Law was abolished in Jesus Christ ( Matthew 27:51, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 9:1-15 ).

agedman said:
God's covenants are everlasting for they are bound upon Him who is everlasting.

Except for the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

agedman said:
None of God's covenants are in disagreement, and none are in conflicting positions.

Amen.
All of God's covenants are holy.

agedman said:
Too many in this modern age do not view either covenant or vow as unbreakable, and not determined upon the actions of others.

Amen once again.
I thank the Lord that He does not rely upon me to keep the terms of the new covenant, or I would surely perish.

Alan Gross · Aug 15, 2019

May I say?

I appreciate and understand, maybe more than you could possibly ever know, the interested thoughts advanced in concern.

My adaptation is from John Gill and as an Interpreter, he is abliged to A.) present many alternate presentations that argue for a position on their view of a Passage etc., while he, seemingly Supernaturally brings the preferred God-Honoring 'conclusion', in his Expositions, which I would Admonish anyone to Pray fully consider, as Spurgeon said, "who is more SOBER than Gill".

Perhaps, Gill is an Unmerited Expression of God's Everlatingly GIVING Grace??????

And, yet.

This treaties is exclusively regarding the 'Similarities' in, what I and Gill believe and he makes a presentation of, is that, yes sir, there is ONE ETERNAL COVENANT, by which The Eternal Godhead, Counseled (as to Wisdom and Their's Being INFINITE, They Agreed, and Deterimed...... (what).... The One ( overall) Eternal Counsel Of???...God's Eternal Compact Agreement, Among The Triune Godhead, to Provide and Accomplish The Work, of Jesus' Perfect Vicarious Sacrifice, and Death, Burial, and, Resurrection,..... And THE HOLY SPIRIT, IN THE PROCESS OF TIME, Bringing each of God's Chosen Elect to Salvation, under THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS, whether in The aOld Testament, or The New Testament.

Now, The ONE Eternal Covenant of Grace, that was, in Eternity Past, Agreed and Compacted Amoung The Triune Godhead, was....... wait for it...... 'kids' find it overwhelming, i. e., over their head(?)..... That ONE COVENANT....... was........ "Administered'.... (are you with me so far?).... in.........??????????.......... ah....

Two Testicles.

There is a 'Testies' plural, aI thinketh.

"They" used to hold a dudes nuts during, "Testamony", as they had them sware they were telling the truth.

I'm just saying.

Agedman and Dave, we seem to each be adults, here.

And, we each HAVE BEEN WITH JESUS.

....

There are Two Distinguished, "Testaments", The Old Testament and The New Testament.

When we approach the Revelation of God, in The Bible, it is O. K. to Hear Him Say, that there has been an "Abrogation" of "The Law Economy", or as God, The Writer of Hebrews Said, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," for The Second "Administration of The ONE ETERNAL COVENANT of GRACE" , to SUPERCEDE The PREVIOUS, "First ADMINISTRATION" , or Testamonial Testimony of God's Promise, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, I. E., FIRST ADMINISTRATION of The ONE Covenant of Grace, THAT THE ETERNAL TRIUNE GODHEAD AGREES to Save those that The Father Gave The Son.

So, while our brother in Heaven, John Gill, isc'sober', in his death to his flesh, and,...... WHAT I HAVE FOUND IS 'MOST DIFFICULT' for Children of God........ (what?.....).... being.... 'honest'... In Dividing God's Words, he, Gill, Also, Supernaturally, it seems, as he Submitted to The Holy Spirit of God, Who is GOD, IN WORSHIP, BY "TRUSTING THE HOLY SPIRIT",

made some distinctions and differences, in specific topics of discussion, like:

"The particular points in which the two Administration's of The Old and New Teastament;

'agree'..

And......

those particulararities of each of the two Administration's, or ' Covanents', in which they don't equal, or 'agree', in their substance.

Covenanter · Aug 15, 2019

agedman said:
Just to be clear.

One covenant does not dissolve when another covenant is made.

God's covenants are everlasting for they are bound upon Him who is everlasting.

None of God's covenants are in disagreement, and none are in conflicting positions.

Dave Gilbert said:
The "old testament", or covenant of Law was abolished in Jesus Christ ( Matthew 27:51, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 9:1-15 ).
Except for the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Covenants can be ended by death - as the covenant with Adam & the marriage covenant. Other OC covenants ended with their fulfilment at the death & resurrection of Christ.

Agedman What specific OC covenants are you thinking of as enduring independently of their fulfilment in & by the LORD Jesus Christ?

37818 · Aug 15, 2019

Dave Gilbert said:
. . . Law was abolished in Jesus Christ . . .

Matthew 5:17 , ". . . Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. . . ." Romans 3:19, ". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . ."

37818 · Aug 15, 2019

Alan Gross said:
<snip> COVENANT....... was........ "Administered'.... (are you with me so far?).... in.........??????????.......... ah....

Two Testicles.

There is a 'Testies' plural, aI thinketh.

"They" used to hold a dudes nuts during, "Testamony", as they had them sware they were telling the truth. <snip>

testimony | Origin and meaning of testimony by Online Etymology Dictionary

Alan Gross · Aug 15, 2019

37818 said:
testimony | Origin and meaning of testimony by Online Etymology Dictionary

'unlikely' they say, because they say 'unlikely'.

37818 · Aug 15, 2019

Alan Gross said:
'unlikely' they say, because they say 'unlikely'.

". . . word is unlikely to have anything to do with testicles . . . ." Meaning not.

Alan Gross · Aug 15, 2019

37818 said:
". . . word is unlikely to have anything to do with testicles . . . ." Meaning not.

You don't know.

That's about all you can get out of everything written?

A comment about some idiosyncracy that you are guessing about and they aren't sure of either?

Thanks for adding something you don't know and are unsure of.

About the most insignificant thing ever mentioned.

Very boring.

Epstein may have been killed by reading this type of reply.

You even changed what they said(?) when they were afraid of saying they know anything to start with, because they don't, for sure.

Different, I sware.

agedman · Aug 15, 2019

Dave Gilbert said:
The "old testament", or covenant of Law was abolished in Jesus Christ ( Matthew 27:51, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 9:1-15 ).

Except for the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Amen.
All of God's covenants are holy.

Amen once again.
I thank the Lord that He does not rely upon me to keep the terms of the new covenant, or I would surely perish.

This is a teaching that needs someone to really examine.

Christ came to FULLFILL not take away. He did not ABOLISH but as Hebrews states,

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

NOTE: it is READY but has not yet vanished away!

Christ did NOT remove the covenant made to the political/social Israel. Rather, he modified it, just as the passages teach.

Teaching that God in some manner cut off the Jews is just wrong. As Paul states in Romans, God has brought a partial blindness to them until that the Gentiles time pass

Just as PAUL validated above. IT IS READY not it has vanished away!

Therefore, it is all the more proof that what John wrote in the Revelations will most certainly be realized in the manner of a physical kingdom rule for 1000 years.

Even PAUL states as much in the second portion you cited!

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

So very many read these passages as if it was a done deal. IT IS "THINGS TO COME," He came, He IS the high priest, but of the gentiles not so much for the Hebrews. The Rook Hebrews was written as was Matthew for a HEBREW audience, not so much for a gentile one.

Again Hebrews:

15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Such was NOT made to Gentiles, but was a promise made to the social / political Israel.

agedman · Aug 15, 2019

Covenanter said:
Covenants can be ended by death - as the covenant with Adam & the marriage covenant. Other OC covenants ended with their fulfilment at the death & resurrection of Christ.

You just proved my point! God cannot die!

Therefore, the covenant made cannot pass.

God's covenants may be modified, but it cannot be nullified.

That is the principle taught in the experience of the book of Esther.

Covenanter said:
Agedman What specific OC covenants are you thinking of as enduring independently of their fulfilment in & by the LORD Jesus Christ?

Christ coming to fulfill does not take them away.

Just as the marriage records remain though one die.

ALL Scriptures are profitable, but not a single part has been removed.

For example:
There is no more effective sacrifice that can be offered than that offered by the Christ. BUT, such sacrifice is not doable again, and again, as the old sacrificial system demanded. Rather, the sacrifice by Christ fulfilled the demands but did not remove that which obliges the demands, just as 1 John states,

8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

and it continues:

4Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Christ modified by fulfillment the requirements concerning the obligation to sacrifice, NOT what obliged the need for the sacrifice. Sin does still occur, but the method of dealing with the sin is not the same.

This then is the principle of just how Christ fulfilled the law. Did He not say:

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

When does heaven and earth pass away?

Just when John stated they would and not before. AFTER the millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ.

Alan Gross · Aug 15, 2019

When illusions are made using Old Tetament to Teach New Testament Truths, the meaning expressed by the symbolism is minimized, and the Message of God lost, any time Jesus' Revelation of The Mosaic System "vanishing" is denied, "*and with the result is a renewed Judaism, complete with temple worship and required annual feasts.

"Although some details may differ from earlier historical iterations, this (thought of 'renewed Judaism, rather than' vanished" Judaism) is essentially the Mosaic system of worship resurrected.

"It would be a titanic reversal of Christ’s blood-bought accomplishments and a return to those types and shadows which his priestly work has rendered obsolete (Heb. 7:18–22; 8:13; 9:8–10; 10:1, 8–9, 18).

"For these reasons, an interpretation is needed which does not posit an intermediate messianic reign including renewed Judaism and the lingering effects of Adam’s fall.

"The interpreter must understand that the Old Testament prophets often foretold New Testament realities through the symbolic use of Old Covenant language."

That is the key.

*from some thoughts (because he has that NAILED) here:

An Amillennial Interpretation of Zechariah 14 (1 of 8) – cbtseminary

agedman · Aug 15, 2019

Alan Gross said:
When illusions are made using Old Tetament to Teach New Testament Truths, the meaning expressed by the symbolism is minimized, and the Message of God lost, any time Jesus' Revelation of The Mosaic System "vanishing" is denied, "*and with the result is a renewed Judaism, complete with temple worship and required annual feasts.

"Although some details may differ from earlier historical iterations, this (thought of 'renewed Judaism, rather than' vanished" Judaism) is essentially the Mosaic system of worship resurrected.

"It would be a titanic reversal of Christ’s blood-bought accomplishments and a return to those types and shadows which his priestly work has rendered obsolete (Heb. 7:18–22; 8:13; 9:8–10; 10:1, 8–9, 18).

"For these reasons, an interpretation is needed which does not posit an intermediate messianic reign including renewed Judaism and the lingering effects of Adam’s fall.

"The interpreter must understand that the Old Testament prophets often foretold New Testament realities through the symbolic use of Old Covenant language."

That is the key.

*from some thoughts (because he has that NAILED) here:

An Amillennial Interpretation of Zechariah 14 (1 of 8) – cbtseminary

What he "nailed" wasn't the truth. It is mere illusion like someone levitating trickery.

The same tired excuse of some violation of the work of Christ is presented.

Frankly, such is mere slight of hand card trick, the thumping of the table while calling forth spirits of the dead, and other such mind games.

Knowing premillennialists have heard and warned against such from the days of Augustine.

But such teaching is all a denial of the actual teaching done by the earliest accounts.

What did the early church use as the Scriptures? It wasn't until the end of the opening century that the letter writing of the apostles were completed.

EVERY noted bible historian and secular authority who knows early church history does acknowledge that the early church teaching was premillennial. Not a-millennial, not post millennial, the early church teaching was premillennial.

What brought change?

A pervert, one who claimed to be a believer, one who became disillusioned because Christ didn't return when he thought, one who erred not only in the eschatology but fell into lot with those who marred the teaching of soteriology.

Many lift him up as some grand luminary, but he was but an illusionary in which others also followed to present alternative "schemes" that might fit better.

Problem is that each "scheme" drifts further from the clearest presentation of the validity of Scriptures, and each calls into question the greatest amount of prophetic statements.

What must be acknowledged is that the early church did not major on teaching the premillennial thinking because it wasn't necessary. There was no other view. It was an accepted fact, and any other thinking would have been scoffed.

What must also be acknowledged is that the modern "Darby dispensation" thinking is not far from the truth, but does certainly misalign the church as replacing Israel. Paul taught the Gentiles are "grafted into" the Israel, and the Lord Jesus taught that He had "other sheep" in which the fold would house.

Covenanter · Aug 16, 2019

agedman said:
This is a teaching that needs someone to really examine.

Christ came to FULLFILL not take away. He did not ABOLISH but as Hebrews states,

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

NOTE: it is READY but has not yet vanished away!

AM, please reread that passage from Hebrews 8 taking note of the context.

The physical signs of the OC - the temple & Jerusalem itself were still standing, though under sentence of utter destruction according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy. About 30 years had passed since Jesus' prophecy; the generation that rejected him had not passed away, in fact, according to Peter, the mockers were boasting -

2 Pet. 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

They were mocking, not appreciating the God of grace -

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Don't forget the opening words of Hebrews -

1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,

The apostles were writing in the last days, while the temple was still standing. In God's grace the symbol of the OC were not immediately destroyed (though the temple veil was rent at the moment of Jesus' sacrifice.) God allowed about 35 years for repentance.

Hebrews reminds his readers, in the words of the post-exile prophet Haggai, of the removal of the OC symbols -

12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Haggai knew that Solomon's temple had been destroyed for the wickedness of the Israelites. The temple he was building would be shaken once more so that the eternal reality, the glorious, living & enduring temple would remain.

The last days of the OC were coming to an end.

Christ did NOT remove the covenant made to the political/social Israel. Rather, he modified it, just as the passages teach.

Teaching that God in some manner cut off the Jews is just wrong. As Paul states in Romans, God has brought a partial blindness to them until that the Gentiles time pass

Just as PAUL validated above. IT IS READY not it has vanished away!

It did vanish away in AD 70. The Jews as a people were not cut off. Many thousands believed in their Messiah from the preaching of John onwards. The scattered Israelites were gathered by the Gospel as Acts tells us.

Therefore, it is all the more proof that what John wrote in the Revelations will most certainly be realized in the manner of a physical kingdom rule for 1000 years.

Even PAUL states as much in the second portion you cited!

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

THe more perfect temple comprises believers, living stones. See Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2.

God is presently calling us to himself, building his church with us.

So very many read these passages as if it was a done deal. IT IS "THINGS TO COME," He came, He IS the high priest, but of the gentiles not so much for the Hebrews. The Rook Hebrews was written as was Matthew for a HEBREW audience, not so much for a gentile one.

Again Hebrews:

15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Such was NOT made to Gentiles, but was a promise made to the social / political Israel.

The Apostles are very clear that the Gospel promises to Israel by the prophets are fulfilled in the Church, to both Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.

Alan Gross · Aug 16, 2019

agedman said:
What he "nailed" wasn't the truth. It is mere illusion like someone levitating trickery.

The same tired excuse of some violation of the work of Christ is presented.

Frankly, such is mere slight of hand card trick, the thumping of the table while calling forth spirits of the dead, and other such mind games.

Knowing premillennialists have heard and warned against such from the days of Augustine.

But such teaching is all a denial of the actual teaching done by the earliest accounts.

What did the early church use as the Scriptures? It wasn't until the end of the opening century that the letter writing of the apostles were completed.

EVERY noted bible historian and secular authority who knows early church history does acknowledge that the early church teaching was premillennial. Not a-millennial, not post millennial, the early church teaching was premillennial.

What brought change?

A pervert, one who claimed to be a believer, one who became disillusioned because Christ didn't return when he thought, one who erred not only in the eschatology but fell into lot with those who marred the teaching of soteriology.

Many lift him up as some grand luminary, but he was but an illusionary in which others also followed to present alternative "schemes" that might fit better.

Problem is that each "scheme" drifts further from the clearest presentation of the validity of Scriptures, and each calls into question the greatest amount of prophetic statements.

What must be acknowledged is that the early church did not major on teaching the premillennial thinking because it wasn't necessary. There was no other view. It was an accepted fact, and any other thinking would have been scoffed.

What must also be acknowledged is that the modern "Darby dispensation" thinking is not far from the truth, but does certainly misalign the church as replacing Israel. Paul taught the Gentiles are "grafted into" the Israel, and the Lord Jesus taught that He had "other sheep" in which the fold would house.

"Behold, The Lamb of God...", is a possible Herminutic Interpretation, only when an Old Testament imagery and figurative symbolism is employed, by God in The Bible, to express a New Testament Spitural Reality, in which Jesus is being identified as God's Sacrifice He has Profided, as The Promised Messiah.

If that same possible Herminutic Interpretation prositure, employed and illustrated in examples like that, by God, is used to view Him using Old Testament images to Teach New Testament Truths, them The Bible has Message and Meaning that doesn't require the inventions of men, influenced by Satan.

agedman · Aug 16, 2019

I have spent decades on this matter, and know the Scriptures.

Covenanter said:
AM, please reread that passage from Hebrews 8 taking note of the context.

The physical signs of the OC - the temple & Jerusalem itself were still standing, though under sentence of utter destruction according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy. About 30 years had passed since Jesus' prophecy; the generation that rejected him had not passed away, in fact, according to Peter, the mockers were boasting -

2 Pet. 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

They were mocking, not appreciating the God of grace -

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Don't forget the opening words of Hebrews -

1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,

The apostles were writing in the last days, while the temple was still standing. In God's grace the symbol of the OC were not immediately destroyed (though the temple veil was rent at the moment of Jesus' sacrifice.) God allowed about 35 years for repentance.

It would seem you are attempting to mix passages presented to Gentiles with those presented to the Israeli believers.

You do so by choosing 2 Peter 3:3 and attempting to conform it to pre AD 70. That is wrong.

Certainly, there were already scoffers, but such has been from the very beginning even upon the cross. However, just as you are doing by scoffing (by miss aligning Scriptures to a scheme which invalidates great portions of Scriptures) so to is the historical evidence.

What WILL be different is that when the generation that inappropriately puffed up the Lord's return prior to their death (as had and is still being done) have crossed over, then the statement of Peter will be fully realized.

Christ spoke to us "BY His Son" most certainly. WHO spoke directly to John on the day he was worshiping on the island? The Lord Jesus Christ.

Covenanter said:
Hebrews reminds his readers, in the words of the post-exile prophet Haggai, of the removal of the OC symbols -

12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Haggai knew that Solomon's temple had been destroyed for the wickedness of the Israelites. The temple he was building would be shaken once more so that the eternal reality, the glorious, living & enduring temple would remain.

The last days of the OC were coming to an end.

You (or someone on the thread) pointed out that a covenant ceases upon the death of the covenant maker.

That is accurate, and as stated in a reply post, that is the testimony of the book of Esther.

However, God did not die. The Covenant cannot END, but can, as was done by the king in the book of Esther, be modified.

Christ did not come to destroy, but to fulfill, that is the sacrificial necessities of sin offerings was fulfilled. But the Decalogue is still written upon every human heart in which every human turns from as Romans states.

Covenanter said:
It did vanish away in AD 70. The Jews as a people were not cut off. Many thousands believed in their Messiah from the preaching of John onwards. The scattered Israelites were gathered by the Gospel as Acts tells us.

THe more perfect temple comprises believers, living stones. See Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2.

God is presently calling us to himself, building his church with us.

The Apostles are very clear that the Gospel promises to Israel by the prophets are fulfilled in the Church, to both Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.

See how you dismiss great portions of prophecy, spiritualizing them into myth?

Zachariah gave exact dimensions, specific areas, ... NO previous temple fits.

There is NO temple in the new heaven and earth!

Therefore, there MUST be a temple yet to be.

Do you not realize that when you invalidate the prophets, you bring all prophecy into question?

Do you hold the virgin birth as a myth? It has less credibility than that of the millennial reign.

Do you hold the resurrection as a myth? It has less credibility than that of the millennial reign.

Looking backward you can find proof of the first advent one but discard the other statements.

What I have done, is merely held that, if God was so perfectly accurate in bringing to pass, "That the Scriptures be fulfilled" concerning the first advent, what right do I, as a mere human, to bring some schemes presenting the physical invalidity to those same passages concerning the second advent.

You present what is inconsistent at best. Conforming to a scheme at best.

Why not state the OT prophets were accurate when presenting the facts of the first advent and therefore will be just as accurate in presenting those facts concerning the second?

Covenanter · Aug 16, 2019

agedman said:
You just proved my point! God cannot die!

Therefore, the covenant made cannot pass.

God's covenants may be modified, but it cannot be nullified.

That is the principle taught in the experience of the book of Esther.

Christ coming to fulfill does not take them away.

Just as the marriage records remain though one die.

Covenants are/were ratified by sacrifice. Read Hebrews 9. The key to understanding this is -

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,[fn- that have come] with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The OC promised life on condition of obedience & death for disobedience. Jesus lived in perfect obedience to every aspect of the OC, for his people, yet died for the sins of his people, thus securing our eternal salvation.

That death fully ratified the covenant relationship of God with his people. Note the oft-repeated covenant relationship which includes Gentile believers -

Jer. 11:4 “which I commanded your fathers in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and do according to all that I command you; so shall you be My people, and I will be your God,'

31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Eze. 11:19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD.

Hos. 2:23 .... Then I will say to those who were not My people,[fn]
‘You are My people!' And they shall say, ‘You are my God!' ”

Zec. 2:10 “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the LORD. 11 “Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

2 Cor. 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[fn] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them And walk among them.
I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”[fn]

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Rev. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

ALL Scriptures are profitable, but not a single part has been removed.

For example:
There is no more effective sacrifice that can be offered than that offered by the Christ. BUT, such sacrifice is not doable again, and again, as the old sacrificial system demanded. Rather, the sacrifice by Christ fulfilled the demands but did not remove that which obliges the demands, just as 1 John states,

8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
and it continues:

4Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Christ modified by fulfillment the requirements concerning the obligation to sacrifice, NOT what obliged the need for the sacrifice. Sin does still occur, but the method of dealing with the sin is not the same.

This then is the principle of just how Christ fulfilled the law. Did He not say:

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

In Jesus incarnation, life, death, resurrection & ascension all was accomplished, so now, for his people in NC relationship, the Law is written in our hearts by his indwelling Holy Spirit. Jer. 31 quoted in Heb. 8:10-13. We are in the flesh imperfect, yet the great commandments of love guide us from within.

When does heaven and earth pass away?

Just when John stated they would and not before. AFTER the millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ.

When Jesus comes for resurrection & judgment, then the NH&NE.

Mat. 24: 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[fn] but My Father only.
............
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[fn] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

An indefinite time that will suddenly end. As Peter wrote -

2 Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[fn] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

agedman · Aug 16, 2019

First, it is important that you understand I am not arguing that believers are under the old covenant. Such is just not a proper presentation of the Scriptures.

I am basically arguing that the OT covenantal promises made by God to the people of Israel has not been invalidated.

That is were you and I are apparently in disagreement.

Covenanter said:
Covenants are/were ratified by sacrifice.

No, they are enforced at death, not ratified just as Hebrews states.

We are in agreement pertaining to the work of the Christ. So lets move beyond that point.

Btw, for readers of this thread, Christ did not enter the earthly temple, but the existing heavenly temple in which the earthly one was but a poor picture. That heavenly temple as well as all creation shall pass away, for there is no temple in the new heaven and earth.

The promise of the prophets is that there is a future temple to be built by the Jews, the size is enormous making all previous temples miniatures. That temple is not a part of the new heaven and earth after the final judgment.

Covenanter said:
The OC promised life on condition of obedience & death for disobedience. Jesus lived in perfect obedience to every aspect of the OC, for his people, yet died for the sins of his people, thus securing our eternal salvation.

What you state is true, but not the whole!

Life and death was physical life and death, not spiritual and as it related to the nation, it was the viability of the national life and death.

Eternity was based upon the acceptance of the yearly atonement sacrificial system, and the belief of the people upon that system.

However, it must also be clearly presented that at no time was their total annihilation, for even in the most severest rebukes, God always reminded the folks how He would extend to them mercy and bring them back. That is also how Paul presents the Israeli people in the passage of Romans. They are temporarily limited, but just as the prophets state, they will be brought to the fullest of blessings God covenanted.

The a-mill position is an affront to the validity of the promises of God. The covenant of God to the social/political body of people known as the Israeli.

May I suggest that you move off the soteriology drum of the covenantal thinking. For, there is little disagreement with that matter. Even Darby Dispensationalists agreed (which I am not one) and even some of their early charts showed the covenants aligned with dispensations.

What you and I are in disagreement about is the eschatological view that some covenantal thinkers have in discarding the millennial reign. That which you present in the following manner.

Covenanter said:
zxc
When Jesus comes for resurrection & judgment, then the NH&NE.

Mat. 24: 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[fn] but My Father only.
............
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[fn] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

An indefinite time that will suddenly end. As Peter wrote -

2 Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[fn] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

No one with sense and Biblical understanding is going to argue that the specific time is unknown. That is Scriptural.

What is not Scriptural is the smushing of the timeline so that you present that the return brings immediately the passing away of the of the existing heaven and earth, judgement of the nations, and the NH & NE.

There is a simple solution.

Follow the exact timeline the Apostle John gave.

The great tribulation,
the battle of Armageddon (a series with a final culmination),
the physical return of Christ (day and hour unknown),
the establishment of the 1000 year reign as King of kings,
the uprising,
all time stopping with the clocks of creation ceasing as the old heaven and earth burn away,
final judgement,
new heaven and earth.

Now, if you would submit to that time line that the Apostle John presented, you would not only find your covenantal views in total agreement with NT Scripture, but also such would bring your thinking into credibility with the OT prophet statements as to how all that takes place in a very real, physical established fulfillment, just as the first advent.

But, I would imagine that you cannot bring yourself to submit to the authority of John but grasp to that which is some human construct.

So, as I presented in an earlier post:

Do you consider the prophetic statements concerning the Lord Jesus Christ were completely accurate concerning the first advent?

Why then do you not hold that same consistency concerning the second advent?

Such inconsistency is never presented in the Scriptures.

Alan Gross · Aug 16, 2019

agedman said:
First, it is important that you understand I am not arguing that believers are under the old covenant. Such is just not a proper presentation of the Scriptures.

I am basically arguing that the OT covenantal promises made by God to the people of Israel has not been invalidated.

That is were you and I are apparently in disagreement.

No, they are enforced at death, not ratified just as Hebrews states.

We are in agreement pertaining to the work of the Christ. So lets move beyond that point.

Btw, for readers of this thread, Christ did not enter the earthly temple, but the existing heavenly temple in which the earthly one was but a poor picture. That heavenly temple as well as all creation shall pass away, for there is no temple in the new heaven and earth.

The promise of the prophets is that there is a future temple to be built by the Jews, the size is enormous making all previous temples miniatures. That temple is not a part of the new heaven and earth after the final judgment.

What you state is true, but not the whole!

Life and death was physical life and death, not spiritual and as it related to the nation, it was the viability of the national life and death.

Eternity was based upon the acceptance of the yearly atonement sacrificial system, and the belief of the people upon that system.

However, it must also be clearly presented that at no time was their total annihilation, for even in the most severest rebukes, God always reminded the folks how He would extend to them mercy and bring them back. That is also how Paul presents the Israeli people in the passage of Romans. They are temporarily limited, but just as the prophets state, they will be brought to the fullest of blessings God covenanted.

The a-mill position is an affront to the validity of the promises of God. The covenant of God to the social/political body of people known as the Israeli.

May I suggest that you move off the soteriology drum of the covenantal thinking. For, there is little disagreement with that matter. Even Darby Dispensationalists agreed (which I am not one) and even some of their early charts showed the covenants aligned with dispensations.

What you and I are in disagreement about is the eschatological view that some covenantal thinkers have in discarding the millennial reign. That which you present in the following manner.

No one with sense and Biblical understanding is going to argue that the specific time is unknown. That is Scriptural.

What is not Scriptural is the smushing of the timeline so that you present that the return brings immediately the passing away of the of the existing heaven and earth, judgement of the nations, and the NH & NE.

There is a simple solution.

Follow the exact timeline the Apostle John gave.

The great tribulation,
the battle of Armageddon (a series with a final culmination),
the physical return of Christ (day and hour unknown),
the establishment of the 1000 year reign as King of kings,
the uprising,
all time stopping with the clocks of creation ceasing as the old heaven and earth burn away,
final judgement,
new heaven and earth.

Now, if you would submit to that time line that the Apostle John presented, you would not only find your covenantal views in total agreement with NT Scripture, but also such would bring your thinking into credibility with the OT prophet statements as to how all that takes place in a very real, physical established fulfillment, just as the first advent.

But, I would imagine that you cannot bring yourself to submit to the authority of John but grasp to that which is some human construct.

So, as I presented in an earlier post:

Do you consider the prophetic statements concerning the Lord Jesus Christ were completely accurate concerning the first advent?

Why then do you not hold that same consistency concerning the second advent?

Such inconsistency is never presented in the Scriptures.

The use of 'mill' is the sure sign of a Bible novice with regard to The Last Times.

That statement is original with me.

The Bible Teaching of The Last Times is Literature.

A usage of 'mill' is irrelevant to The Bible Teaching of The Last Times.

There has, nor never will be an argument of it.

The Bible already Teaches what it Teaches without it, or any suggestion of 'mill'.

The is the sign of a novice unlearned in reading Literature.

GOD’S GRACE “Holy Covenant” With OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member