GOD’S GRACE “Holy Covenant” With OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS

[Covenanter]

First, it is important that you understand I am not arguing that believers are under the old covenant. Such is just not a proper presentation of the Scriptures.

I am basically arguing that the OT covenantal promises made by God to the people of Israel has not been invalidated.

That is were you and I are apparently in disagreement.

You are presently your understanding very clearly.

My basic position is that the OC covenant promises had a partial, physical fulfilment during the OC age, but also had a personal, spiritual fulfilment for individual believers such as the Patriarchs, Elijah & the 7,000, the prophets & their followers, etc.

The intended fulfilment was always in, through & by the promised Messiah, and were secured by him at Calvary. The redeemed people of Israel receive the promises in ful, as intended, through the Gospel & ultimately in the NH&NE.

A further physical, carnal fulfilment was never intended. Abraham understood this, as Hebrews 11 explains.

Ian - Covenants are/were ratified by sacrifice.

AM - No, they are enforced at death, not ratified just as Hebrews states.

AM - We are in agreement pertaining to the work of the Christ. So lets move beyond that point.

When we read of the various covenants under the OC administration, a sacrifice is normally included, e.g. Gen. 15, Jer. 34:18 or a token shared meal, e.g. Joshua 9, Luke 22, 1 Cor. 11.

Btw, for readers of this thread, Christ did not enter the earthly temple, but the existing heavenly temple in which the earthly one was but a poor picture. That heavenly temple as well as all creation shall pass away, for there is no temple in the new heaven and earth.

The promise of the prophets is that there is a future temple to be built by the Jews, the size is enormous making all previous temples miniatures. That temple is not a part of the new heaven and earth after the final judgment.

Was there ever a physical heavenly temple? The tabernacle was symbolic of the vision given Moses in Ex. 25:8-9, Heb. 8, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2. Jesus spoke of himself - his body - as the temple to be raised up. And in eternity there is no temple, for the Lord God & the Lamb are the temple. Rev. 21. The Word became flesh & tabernacled among us.

Ian - The OC promised life on condition of obedience & death for disobedience. Jesus lived in perfect obedience to every aspect of the OC, for his people, yet died for the sins of his people, thus securing our eternal salvation.

AM - What you state is true, but not the whole!

Life and death was physical life and death, not spiritual and as it related to the nation, it was the viability of the national life and death.

Eternity was based upon the acceptance of the yearly atonement sacrificial system, and the belief of the people upon that system.

While promises were made to Israel as a nation, & realised when the nation was living n general obedience, they were only ever realised by personal faith, as Romans 11 & Hebrews 11 tell us.

However, it must also be clearly presented that at no time was their total annihilation, for even in the most severest rebukes, God always reminded the folks how He would extend to them mercy and bring them back. That is also how Paul presents the Israeli people in the passage of Romans. They are temporarily limited, but just as the prophets state, they will be brought to the fullest of blessings God covenanted.

Paul doesn't speak of the restoration of the nation, only personal faith & salvation.

Jesus made it very clear that Israel as a kingdom would be brought to an end, & replaced by a holy kingdom. Mat. 21:19, 43-46. He also made it very clear that on repentance Jews, Samaritans & Gentiles were welcomed into his kingdom.

There is no promise by Jesus or the Apostles of a restored earthly kingdom.

The a-mill position is an affront to the validity of the promises of God. The covenant of God to the social/political body of people known as the Israeli.

May I suggest that you move off the soteriology drum of the covenantal thinking. For, there is little disagreement with that matter. Even Darby Dispensationalists agreed (which I am not one) and even some of their early charts showed the covenants aligned with dispensations.

What you and I are in disagreement about is the eschatological view that some covenantal thinkers have in discarding the millennial reign. That which you present in the following manner.

No one with sense and Biblical understanding is going to argue that the specific time is unknown. That is Scriptural.

What is not Scriptural is the smushing of the timeline so that you present that the return brings immediately the passing away of the of the existing heaven and earth, judgement of the nations, and the NH & NE.

I suggest you agree that the ultimate purpose of God is the glorious & sinless NH&NE. Also that that present time is a Gospel age during which repentant sinners are welcomed into the kingdom, regardless of ethnicity.

God doesn't need an intermediate millennium to fulfill earthly promises - he had the whole OC age to do that - and did as Joshua & Solomon testify.

There is a simple solution. My response

Follow the exact timeline the Apostle John gave.

The great tribulation, The events leading up to AD 70
the battle of Armageddon (a series with a final culmination), The AD 70 destruction
the physical return of Christ (day and hour unknown), At the end of the present Gospel age.
the establishment of the 1000 year reign as King of kings, Amils can debate the beginning of this as Christ's resurrection or AD 70 when the generation that rejected him, & rejected his Gospel, were destroyed.
the uprising, The events leading up to AD 70
all time stopping with the clocks of creation ceasing as the old heaven and earth burn away, At the second coming
final judgement, At the second coming
new heaven and earth. At the second coming​

Now, if you would submit to that time line that the Apostle John presented, you would not only find your covenantal views in total agreement with NT Scripture, but also such would bring your thinking into credibility with the OT prophet statements as to how all that takes place in a very real, physical established fulfillment, just as the first advent.

But, I would imagine that you cannot bring yourself to submit to the authority of John but grasp to that which is some human construct.

So, as I presented in an earlier post:

Do you consider the prophetic statements concerning the Lord Jesus Christ were completely accurate concerning the first advent?

Why then do you not hold that same consistency concerning the second advent?

Such inconsistency is never presented in the Scriptures.

Jesus first coming, life, death & resurrection were accurately prophesied, though often with surrounding detail & in circumstances that were only clarified with the fulfilment.

While I don't claim perfect understanding, I don't see any conflict between what I believe & teach, & the OC promises, & their NC fulfilment. My understanding is modified as I read & learn. I have moved from the standard amil understanding to the partial Preterist understanding.

I'll consider John's eschatology in a future post.

 

[agedman]

The use of 'mill' is the sure sign of a Bible novice with regard to The Last Times.

That statement is original with me.

The Bible Teaching of The Last Times is Literature.

A usage of 'mill' is irrelevant to The Bible Teaching of The Last Times.

There has, nor never will be an argument of it.

The Bible already Teaches what it Teaches without it, or any suggestion of 'mill'.

The is the sign of a novice unlearned in reading Literature.

Discuss Bible novice with someone else.

Mill means 1000.

That such a novice would post that it has nothing to do with the last times, I point to Rev. 20:

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

Certainly, even a novice can read the clear teaching given by John.

Either one believes what John wrote, or they do not and then must consider him incapacitated from the truth. At that point all prophecy then is called into question, and even the validity of the Lord Jesus Christ being who He claimed.

The time line is firmly established, repeated, and reinforced by specific events that will transpire.

Therefore, I will take the Apostle John at face value, and leave the novices to hammer out their own schemes resulting in heretical failure.

 

[agedman]

(shortened by agedman)
Was there ever a physical heavenly temple? The tabernacle was symbolic of the vision given Moses in Ex. 25:8-9, Heb. 8, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2. Jesus spoke of himself - his body - as the temple to be raised up. And in eternity there is no temple, for the Lord God & the Lamb are the temple. Rev. 21. The Word became flesh & tabernacled among us.

Two thoughts:
One there is a difference between the tabernacle (temporary tent) and the Temple.
Second, what we consider "physical" as concerning the previous temples in Jerusalem were copies. They were real, they were seen, touched, smelled, ... but they were copies not the original. The original is in heaven.

4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are already priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5The place where they serve is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”a​

What is remarkable (imo) is that the very enemies of God have tread throughout the heavens, the heavenly temple, and all creation.

How and at what time will such be purged? Rev. 20:

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.​

This is why there is no temple in New heaven in which a copy may be made on earth.

What then takes the place of the temple in the new heaven? Again, in Rev. 21:

22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

There are no copies in the new heaven and earth. Only "the real thing."

While promises were made to Israel as a nation, & realised when the nation was living n general obedience, they were only ever realised by personal faith, as Romans 11 & Hebrews 11 tell us.


Paul doesn't speak of the restoration of the nation, only personal faith & salvation.

I disagree. Here is the passage: Romans 11:

Because of space I will not include all the passage, but Paul is stating very infatically that the social / political group called Israel will in fact be brought by God's grace into repentance and salvation. Here specifically it states:

25Lest you (Gentiles) be wise in your (Gentiles) own sight, I do not want you (Gentiles) to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28As regards the gospel, they (Isreal) are enemies for your (Gentiles) sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
​

Now the bolds and paranthasis is added so the readers may understand.

Jesus made it very clear that Israel as a kingdom would be brought to an end, & replaced by a holy kingdom. Mat. 21:19, 43-46. He also made it very clear that on repentance Jews, Samaritans & Gentiles were welcomed into his kingdom.

No exactly, rather the Lord set aside the nation of Israel as shown in the passage above, that Gentiles be grafted into the believing. He did not bring the promises (again, as shown in the above passage) to an conclusion. Rather, He enlarged the promise to include Gentiles, and later those of the Jews to be redeemed.

There is no promise by Jesus or the Apostles of a restored earthly kingdom.

Not that you would scheme, but the prophets give more writing to that kingdom than to the first advent. So, why dismiss it? If they were accurate in what they wrote of that time, WHY dismiss it as accurate of the future? Especially when far more was written, both the the OT, and more especially to the Gentiles what John laid out in the Revelation?

The conjuring of the non-premil thinking is just so contrary to that presented when taken as valid and reliable.

God doesn't need an intermediate millennium to fulfill earthly promises - he had the whole OC age to do that - and did as Joshua & Solomon testify.

God is not "need(y)" at all. His love compels.

As such, He made certain covenants, and prophetic statements which are binding.

That humankind doesn't consider them needful are in no manner compulsory for them not to be fulfilled.

 

[agedman]

Jesus first coming, life, death & resurrection were accurately prophesied, though often with surrounding detail & in circumstances that were only clarified with the fulfilment.

It is true that the Scriptures repeat the phrase, that what was written be fulfilled, however the clarification was for the benefit of making the statements valid from the Human perspective. Where before, certain argued and were divided (example: Sadducee no resurrection, Pharisees resurrection) John is able to state, "These things are written that you may know you have...."

However, if you are suggesting then that the prophetic statements are not clarified until they are fulfilled, then I cannot agree. The prophets wrote, the words are given. What is left to humankind is to take that which is believable and correct in their own minds as valid, and that which is not Just as valid based upon the reliability of what has been shown.

Clarification (making clear) may not come, even as Paul states, "we see as through a much smudged window...) (my paraphrasing). Yet, such is not needed.

What is needed is simply, "God said it, I believe it" teaching and presentation.

Humankind are not given to "know all mysteries." Even John was told to seal up some of the prophecy. It will remain a secret until the time necessary.

While I don't claim perfect understanding, I don't see any conflict between what I believe & teach, & the OC promises, & their NC fulfilment. My understanding is modified as I read & learn. I have moved from the standard amil understanding to the partial Preterist understanding.

I'll consider John's eschatology in a future post.

The acceptance of a literal, physical, future reign of Christ upon this earth, just as the OT and NT statements present, cannot be sacrificed for any view.

If one does, then what is presented must be considered heretical. Such has acquired that level of refusal, because of the very refusal of such schemes to take the Scriptures as valid in presenting that which will take place.

Claims that would discredit the virgin birth, the atonement, the resurrection, ... are heretical. So to is any scheme that would question the clear teaching of the physical return of Christ to rule the earth for 1000 years. If the others matters are presented in Scriptures as reliable, so to is this matter of the future kingdom rule.

 

[Alan Gross]

Discuss Bible novice with someone else.

Mill means 1000.

That such a novice would post that it has nothing to do with the last times, I point to Rev. 20:

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

Certainly, even a novice can read the clear teaching given by John.

Either one believes what John wrote, or they do not and then must consider him incapacitated from the truth. At that point all prophecy then is called into question, and even the validity of the Lord Jesus Christ being who He claimed.

The time line is firmly established, repeated, and reinforced by specific events that will transpire.

Therefore, I will take the Apostle John at face value, and leave the novices to hammer out their own schemes resulting in heretical failure.

Randomly swinging back and forth between Letterism and Spiritualizing is illiterate.

 

[agedman]

Randomly swinging back and forth between Letterism and Spiritualizing is illiterate.

Whose swinging?

I have no problem with John stating an exact number of years, just as I have no problem with him stating in what condition he saw the Lord when he spoke.

Did not that same John write:

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
​

So, by what authority do you not take John as not very specific when repeating the exact same number of years multiple times within a single passage, yet would take seriously accurate the single statement above?

Swinging? Nope.

 

[Alan Gross]

Whose swinging?

I have no problem with John stating an exact number of years, just as I have no problem with him stating in what condition he saw the Lord when he spoke.

Did not that same John write:

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
​

So, by what authority do you not take John as not very specific when repeating the exact same number of years multiple times within a single passage, yet would take seriously accurate the single statement above?

Swinging? Nope.

By what authority do yo command we submit to Satan, by telling us to submit to your inconsistent, fleshly system of misinterpretation he inspired?

You call it, "John".

 

[agedman]

By what authority do yo command we submit to Satan, by telling us to submit to your inconsistent, fleshly system of misinterpretation he inspired?

You call it, "John".

I quoted John.

How dare you call the Scripture I quoted in the above posts as from Satan!

That is extremely bad!

Can you find any place in Scripture in which the EXACT number of years is repeated as that found in John's writing of the 1000 year reign?

One would think that you would be more careful in what you aligned as satanic, fleshly, and misinterpretation.

Any view that does not support a literal physical return of Christ to rule this world for 1000 years following exactly what the Apostle John wrote, is heretical for such schemes invalidate the truth and present views contrary to the Scriptures.

 

[Covenanter]

Discuss Bible novice with someone else.

Mill means 1000.

That such a novice would post that it has nothing to do with the last times, I point to Rev. 20:

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

Certainly, even a novice can read the clear teaching given by John.

Either one believes what John wrote, or they do not and then must consider him incapacitated from the truth. At that point all prophecy then is called into question, and even the validity of the Lord Jesus Christ being who He claimed.

The time line is firmly established, repeated, and reinforced by specific events that will transpire.

Therefore, I will take the Apostle John at face value, and leave the novices to hammer out their own schemes resulting in heretical failure.

A significant feature of Revelation 20 is that it is at the end of John's visions, & at the end of the Bible, after the prophecies of the OC prophets, Jesus & the Apostles (including John) have been written.

A further observation is that Revelation was written with a sense of urgency, the opening verses calling for immediate attention. While the letters to the churches are specific, they are intended for readers & hearers down the ages to heed. We can certainly study Revelation to learn how to live in troubled times as is the amil procedure.

The Revelation is concerned with the destruction of Jerusalem, Rev. 11 being particularly concerned with the temple, with allusions to Isaiah's denunciation of Jerusalem (Isaiah 1:10, Rev. 11:8) and Jesus' warning in Luke 16:29-31. Rev. 18:24 is an allusion to Jesus' warning to the Scribes & Pharisees in Mat. 23:35-36.

When we consider the seals, we see an allusion to Ezekiel 14:21-23, where God warns Jerusalem of 4 dreadful judgments - sword, famine, wild beasts & plague. See Rev. 6:8.

Whatever other lessons amil teachers read in Revelation, it seems clear that the visions concern the judgment against Jerusalem & the deliverance of the believers. We can see the 144,000 faithful Israelites, firstfruits, as a symbolic complete number of believing Jews, including those who were protected from the "four winds" that would destroy the city & the land.

I do not believe that the Revelation is "stand-alone" prophecy. We need to read it in parallel with other prophetic writings, particularly the Gospels & Epistles.

 

[Alan Gross]

Then, how many Destructions of Jerusalem are there?

How many different Resurrection from the dead?

How many Comings of Christ in the air?

How many Comings of Christ to the Earth?

How many are visible?

How many are invisible?

How many Judgments?

How many for the lost?

How many for the Saved?

How many Probations of men, with no sin, leading additional falls of man into sin?

How many Distructions of the World?

How many Jews does Jesus want us to leave lost?

All of them?

I hope you don't tell me that I know the answer to each of these, you Scheme, and you don't.

The End of The World is Recorded in Revelation 1:7.

How many Jews have you witnessed Jesus to?

Do you help free Black Slaves from Muslims?

Is this The Revelation of the Apostle John, to you?

 

[Covenanter]

There is a tendency for premils to treat Revelation as a stand-alone end times prophecy that concerns the events after Jesus returns.

And a tendency for amils to treat the prophecies of Revelation as non-specific events taking place throughout the present millennium.

Many correctly see the Revelation as including a series of iterations as the prophecy unfolds from the sealed scroll, through the warning trumpets to the vials of wrath poured out.

Taking Jesus' Olivet prophecy as the key to understanding Revelation, we see two sets of "end times." The end of the OC at the AD 70 destruction & the end of the Gospel age when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment. Jesus spoke of the destruction as coming in clouds when those who pierced him would see him. We can see with our eyes & see with our understanding. The Jews who rejected Jesus saw him in the flesh, saw his miracles, but did not see him with understanding. They mocked him as a promise breaker as they lived on for 35 years after the crucifixion. (2 Peter 3) And then they saw him in the prophesied days of vengeance as Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed.

In Rev. 4 John sees everything wonderful in heaven & in 5 he sees the sealed scroll. A scroll that contains "things which must take place after this.” And he sees Jesus, the Lion-Lamb who by his triumph at Calvary can open the seals.

Revelation 4-5

Holy, holy, holy Lord God,
Praise the Lord of heaven and earth.
Jesus, Lion, stands in triumph,
Jesus, Lamb, the sacrifice.
Blessing, honour, glory, power
To the Father and the Son;
Now sealed scrolls will all be opened;
Now God's plans will be made known.

​

 

[Covenanter]

The opening of the seals presents God's plan of action, but for which scenario?
The AD 70 destruction?
Events until Jesus' return?
Yet future end times?

Rev. 6 - the 4 horsemen; I understand these to be -
Christ the victorious one;
2, 3 & 4 are angelic beings implementing God's plan for the land. The 4 means of death were predicted for Jerusalem in Ezekiel 14. Note that the word for land "GE" (as in geography) has a range of meanings including soil, a country, the planet.
See Strong 1093 ge
The likelihood is that, in context, "ge" means the land of Judea.

The fifth seal shows the martyrs, safe under the altar, but appealing for vengeance while the perpetrators of their persecution live on, .

The sixth seal shows the wrath of God & the Lamb poured out on the wicked. The graphic details are similar to judgments portrayed in the OC Scriptures. See e.g. Isaiah 13 describing the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes. Note 2 the warning of Jesus in Luke 23:30 fulfilled in vs. 15-17.

Rev. 7 seems to be an interlude, when the protected situation of the faithful Israelites & others suffering tribulation is considered in the light of the coming destruction - the 4 winds striking the land. The Lamb will be their Shepherd!

The seventh seal, 8:1, brings silence & prayer as the significance of the seals is contemplated.

 

[Alan Gross]

We are asked, then, to "rightfully divide" The Word of God, in every area, not just the Covenant.

The statistical probability that Revelation is to be read and 'unfolding events' made into anything is zero.

Interpreting The Bible with any use, or misuse, of a 'mill' word is never needed.

And if 70 A. D. has been actually seen by someone in there, I sure don't and don't know why they would, do you?


I believe God would have us see the first 3 Chapters, from one Perspective and with the Interpretive Principal that the Earthly Commentary, in the first Chapter and then regarding the 7 churches, could be applied to them, in the First Century, and the same Spiritually Applicable Principals, to all remaining servants of God and Jesus' churches, throughout the New Testament Era.

"Lampstands" is the topic discussed.

With the 2nd and 3rd Chapter containing letters to the 7 churches, included in this First Complete Sectional Division of Revelation, it actually shows The Return of Jesus and The End of The Age, in Revelation 1:7.

So, the way I see these first 3 Chapters
is that everything contained in them
covers the Time Period
that it Divides itself into,

... from The One Who Washed us
in His Own Blood, in Jesus'Fisrt Advent,

... to His Coming in His Second Advent,
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1:7.

Each of the remaining 6 sectional divisions divid themselves, too,

... into the topics, such as, 'the Seals', the 'Trumpets', 'the Dragon', etc., each of which, just like John being 'in the Spirit', are all separate 'Visions'.


WILLIAM HENDRIKSEN'S PRINCIPLES
FOR INTERPRETING
THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

This is the first of several
"Principles of Apocalyptic
Literary Genre Bible Study."

The first principle concerns
the structure of the book.

Principle #1: The book of Revelation
consists of seven sections.

Each of these 7 sections are parallel,
as though 'layered on top of one another'

... and each of the 7 sectional divisions
spans the entire New Testament Era,
from the first to the second coming of Christ.

The first section concerns
"Christ in the Midst of the Lampstands"
(1:1 - 3:22).

The lampstands represent
the seven churches (1:20)

... which is Interpreted to represent the various churches of The Lord
throughout the present age between
Christ's first and second comings.

"Thus interpreted, each individual church is, as it were, a type, not indicating one definite, specific, individual point in history, but describing conditions which are constantly repeated in the actual life of the various congregations" (Hendriksen, p.16) throughout The Age of churches, until Jesus Returns.

The first coming of Christ
is mentioned in 1:5 and

... the mention of the second coming
is found in 1:7.

The Lampstands defines the subject matter

... and the first and second Comings of Christ, Recorded,
define the overall Time Period covered.
...


The second section concerns
"The Vision of Heaven and the Seals"
(4:1 - 7:17).

This section begins with Christ
exalted on His throne
opening the scroll with seven seals.

The Lamb, having been slain,
now rules in glory.

History unfolds as a sequence of judgments visited upon mankind which concludes with a depiction of final judgment.

This sections ALSO begins with events associated with Christ's
first coming (5:5,6)

... and ends with events associated with Christ's second coming (6:17; 7:16,17).
...

The third section concerns
"The Seven Trumpets" (8:1 - 11:19).

The trumpets announce judgments
upon the world.

The churches of Jesus (chpts 10 & 11)
continues to bear witness.

At the end of this section
allusion is again made to final judgment (11:15,18).
...

The fourth section concerns
"The Persecuting Dragon" (12:1 - 14:20).

This section encompasses
the history of the world
from creation to the second coming.

Christ's first coming is summarized
in 12:5.

As Christ is now enthroned,
the Dragon makes war against the saints,
employing the services of the Beast (13:1),
the second beast or false prophet (13:11,12),
and the Whore - Babylon (14:8).

Christ's second coming in judgment
is seen at the end of this section
(14:14-16).
...


The fifth section concerns
"The Seven Bowls" (15:1 - 16:21).

This section is another description
of the judgments of God
which concludes with
the final judgment in 16:20.
...

The sixth section concerns
"The Fall of Babylon" (17:1 - 19:21).

The world system which prevails
between the first
and second comings of Christ
is defeated by Christ
as His return is described in 19:11-16.
...


The seventh section concerns
"The Great Consummation" (20:1 - 22:21).

Here we meet up
with the final demise of Satan.

We are told in 20:2,3 of Satan
being bound for 1,000 years
- a binding which commenced
in Christ's first coming (cf. Mt 12:29)
and parallels Satan being cast out in 12:9.

This 1,000 years is followed
by a little season
in which Satan is loosed (20:7)
but then finally overthrown in 20:10.

"The book consists of seven sections,
and these seven sections run parallel
to one another.

Each of them spans the entire New Testament Age of Jesus' churches, from the first to the second coming of Christ.

This period is viewed now from one aspect, now from another." (Hendriksen, p.18,19)"

The 7 sections give us a view from God of our current age, from varying degrees of disclosure and intensity.

The first 3 sections concern mostly
the conflict seen caused
by Spiritual Warfare on Earth,

then the last 4 sections
Reveal Spiritual Warfair,
to emphasize conflict
between God and Satan,
in The Spiritual Realm, as Revelation.

Each of the 7 sections, begining with John "in The Spirit on The Lord's Day"
Are VISIONS.

7 DISTINCT, INDIVIDUAL VISIONS.

They are to be Interpreted as layered
and parellel VISIONS,
'sandwiched' on top of one another.
in gradually building extents of detail
and degrees of unvailing.

That may be shown clearly, also.

#106Aug 7, 2019

 

[Covenanter]

Alan, I am familiar with Hendriksen's line of interpretation. About 25 years ago I preached through Revelation using a similar interpretation as my guide. But I didn't stop reading & researching.

I don't cut & paste, apart from Scripture - I write my own posts. It would be helpful if you separated your own writing from other peoples. Hendriksen is unlikely to respond if I reply to his points.

Consider what I write, & the supporting Scriptures. You may modify your understanding.

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan, I am familiar with Hendriksen's line of interpretation. About 25 years ago I preached through Revelation using a similar interpretation as my guide. But I didn't stop reading & researching.

I don't cut & paste, apart from Scripture - I write my own posts. It would be helpful if you separated your own writing from other peoples. Hendriksen is unlikely to respond if I reply to his points.

Consider what I write, & the supporting Scriptures. You may modify your understanding.

I was asked to explain what I meant by 7 sections, in private.

I answered that and posted this, because it is God Reinterating His Revelation 7 times.

If you don't get it, Preach it or not.

It doesn't matter if the other parts of The Bible are misinterpreted, like Daniel 7 & 9, Matthew 24, and their is no understanding of what The Lord Taught about His churches, if those misinterpretations are attempted to be forced back into a properly structured Herminutic.

From the outset, the statement, "I don't know what it means", is all that rings out as a consent to defeat.

Just as sure as someone convinced 'mill'-anything has to do with God.

'Mill' wasn't Taught in The Eternal Covenant of Grace, or the rest of The Old or New Testament and it is pure fantasy.

Jesus is Returning with no tricks.

Are you trying to put Matthew 24 into The Book of Revelation these days?

 

[Covenanter]

I was asked to explain what I meant by 7 sections, in private.

I answered that and posted this, because it is God Reinterating His Revelation 7 times.

If you don't get it, Preach it or not.

It doesn't matter if the other parts of The Bible are misinterpreted, like Daniel 7 & 9, Matthew 24, and their is no understanding of what The Lord Taught about His churches, if those misinterpretations are attempted to be forced back into a properly structured Herminutic.

From the outset, the statement, "I don't know what it means", is all that rings out as a consent to defeat.

Just as sure as someone convinced 'mill'-anything has to do with God.

'Mill' wasn't Taught in The Eternal Covenant of Grace, or the rest of The Old or New Testament and it is pure fantasy.

Jesus is Returning with no tricks.

Are you trying to put Matthew 24 into The Book of Revelation these days?

I have replied to specific points by private conversation.

It does certainly matter if the Bible is misinterpreted, & if there is no understanding, one shouldn't be teaching.

"Mill" is from the Latin for 1,000 so millennium means 1,000 years. Latin was the common language for the Bible (Vulgate) for over 1,000 years & was used in British schools & universities until recently. I learnt Latin at school. See -

Rev. 20:2 et adprehendit draconem serpentem antiquum qui est diabolus et Satanas et ligavit eum per annos mille​

That doesn't justify premil teaching, but it does call for understanding & interpretation.

Matthew 24 is primarily concerned with the destruction of temple & Jerusalem that took place in AD 70 - before the generation that rejected its Messiah had passed away. Note the transition between vs

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[fn] but My Father only. ​

The events of Revelation include the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem - see Rev. 11, so yes, we should read Revelation alongside Mat. 24.

 

[Alan Gross]

I have replied to specific points by private conversation.

It does certainly matter if the Bible is misinterpreted, & if there is no understanding, one shouldn't be teaching.

"Mill" is from the Latin for 1,000 so millennium means 1,000 years. Latin was the common language for the Bible (Vulgate) for over 1,000 years & was used in British schools & universities until recently. I learnt Latin at school. See -

Rev. 20:2 et adprehendit draconem serpentem antiquum qui est diabolus et Satanas et ligavit eum per annos mille​

That doesn't justify premil teaching, but it does call for understanding & interpretation.

Matthew 24 is primarily concerned with the destruction of temple & Jerusalem that took place in AD 70 - before the generation that rejected its Messiah had passed away. Note the transition between vs

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[fn] but My Father only. ​

The events of Revelation include the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem - see Rev. 11, so yes, we should read Revelation alongside Mat. 24.

Looks like, if Latin is why, 'a thousand', can be transubstanciated into, 'The Millennium', then that is Rome, & etc., (their direct supernaturally evil influence) that did it.

The Apocalyptic Genre that Interprets 'a thousand', figuratively, just like every other number in The Book of Revelation, obviscates any metamorphosis, of 'a thousand', into, 'The Anything'.
...

From my perspective, 1.) each Passage of Scripture has One Interpretation,

& 2.) No Prophecy has a 'Double Interpretation'.

(& 3.) of course, just as a given, waffling randomly between Letterism and Spiritualizing is dismissed out of hand).

So, if I bring that thinking to Matthew 24, I get a 'rightly divided' break at the end of verse 24:34.

I Interpret those events mentioned in Matthew 24:34 and before, as referring exclusively to The Abomination of Desolation, and those things that Jesus Said were signs leading up to it.

These verses answer their first two questions in Matthew 24:3b:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? (Answered in 24:4-24)

The events leading to Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

And the actual moment when 24:2b "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

This is when Jesus Comes Against The Jews in Providential Judgment.

"and what shall be the sign of thy coming", (Answered in Matthew 24:15-34).

Those verses all have to do with The Distruction of The Temple, by The Roman Army.

"Where the carcus is", The devastation of The Jews in Jerusalem', "there shall the eagles" (The Roman Army) " be gathered together".


Then the third question the Disciples ask Jesus is, "what shall be the sign..... of the end of the world?"

Jesus Answered their third question, about

"the end of the world?"


In Matthew 24:35-51, I see those verses referring exclusively to the Disciples question, "what shall be the sign..... of the end of the world?"

One Interpretation.

No Double Meaning, or Interpretation of the Passage, or any Prophecy.

Nothing to do with Revelation.

Nothing prior to Matthew 24:34 having any relevance to "The End Times", or Jesus' Return, at His One and Only Second Coming, in Final Judgment, at The Consummation of The Age, or The Book of Revelation.

That gets an Interpretation of Matthew 24, when all others are grasping and guessing and Hendrixson's structure gives a Practical Application to those in John's day, and every day since.

Revelation was written to us, in this Current Era, and is the most Practical Book in The Bible, because it Says so.

Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

 

[Covenanter]

From my perspective, 1.) each Passage of Scripture has One Interpretation,

& 2.) No Prophecy has a 'Double Interpretation'.

(& 3.) of course, just as a given, waffling randomly between Letterism and Spiritualizing is dismissed out of hand).

So, if I bring that thinking to Matthew 24, I get a 'rightly divided' break at the end of verse 24:34.

I Interpret those events mentioned in Matthew 24:34 and before, as referring exclusively to The Abomination of Desolation, and those things that Jesus Said were signs leading up to it.

These verses answer their first two questions in Matthew 24:3b:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? (Answered in 24:4-24)

The events leading to Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

And the actual moment when 24:2b "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

This is when Jesus Comes Against The Jews in Providential Judgment.

"and what shall be the sign of thy coming", (Answered in Matthew 24:15-34).

Those verses all have to do with The Distruction of The Temple, by The Roman Army.

"Where the carcus is", The devastation of The Jews in Jerusalem', "there shall the eagles" (The Roman Army) " be gathered together".

We are in close agreement. However, those verses include vs. 29-31 which must refer to Jesus coming veiled by clouds, as alluded to in Rev. 1:7, where "earth" is the translation of "GE" which often refers to the "land" of Israel.

Then the third question the Disciples ask Jesus is, "what shall be the sign..... of the end of the world?"

Jesus Answered their third question, about

"the end of the world?"


In Matthew 24:35-51, I see those verses referring exclusively to the Disciples question, "what shall be the sign..... of the end of the world?"

One Interpretation.

No Double Meaning, or Interpretation of the Passage, or any Prophecy.

Nothing to do with Revelation.

Nothing prior to Matthew 24:34 having any relevance to "The End Times", or Jesus' Return, at His One and Only Second Coming, in Final Judgment, at The Consummation of The Age, or The Book of Revelation.

I agree that vs. 35-51 refer to end of the world (or age.) I understand those verses to be general advice for Christian living, always ready to meet our Lord coming from heaven for resurrection & judgment.

We are living in a lost world, under deferred judgment. It is a Gospel age during which our God is allowing time for repentance.

However, my understanding of Revelation as Hendriksen & other amil writers, is that Rev. 20 refers to Christ's victory & binding of Satan for the Gospel age. Thus Mat. 24:35-51 teaches how to live during the Gospel age (aka the millennium.) In that there is no real difference concerning Christian living in the Acts period & after. The prophetic warnings of Peter & Jude are not dated.

 

[atpollard]

Christ did NOT remove the covenant made to the political/social Israel. Rather, he modified it, just as the passages teach.

Didn't God already put an end to the Mosaic covenant by ultimately pronouncing the curses from the original covenant first on the Northern Kingdom and then on Judah? (Before Jesus came along.)

Now only the Covenant of Adam (Eve), Abraham and David remain to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ ... who pruned away the Mosaic followers that were not children of Abraham and grafted in the Gentiles ... fulfilling the old Covenants to create a new and better Covenant of Grace.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yes, sir.