Featured GOD’S GRACE “Holy Covenant” With OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS

You are presently your understanding very clearly.

My basic position is that the OC covenant promises had a partial, physical fulfilment during the OC age, but also had a personal, spiritual fulfilment for individual believers such as the Patriarchs, Elijah & the 7,000, the prophets & their followers, etc.

The intended fulfilment was always in, through & by the promised Messiah, and were secured by him at Calvary. The redeemed people of Israel receive the promises in ful, as intended, through the Gospel & ultimately in the NH&NE.

A further physical, carnal fulfilment was never intended. Abraham understood this, as Hebrews 11 explains.

When we read of the various covenants under the OC administration, a sacrifice is normally included, e.g. Gen. 15, Jer. 34:18 or a token shared meal, e.g. Joshua 9, Luke 22, 1 Cor. 11.

Was there ever a physical heavenly temple? The tabernacle was symbolic of the vision given Moses in Ex. 25:8-9, Heb. 8, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2. Jesus spoke of himself - his body - as the temple to be raised up. And in eternity there is no temple, for the Lord God & the Lamb are the temple. Rev. 21. The Word became flesh & tabernacled among us.

While promises were made to Israel as a nation, & realised when the nation was living n general obedience, they were only ever realised by personal faith, as Romans 11 & Hebrews 11 tell us.

Paul doesn't speak of the restoration of the nation, only personal faith & salvation.

Jesus made it very clear that Israel as a kingdom would be brought to an end, & replaced by a holy kingdom. Mat. 21:19, 43-46. He also made it very clear that on repentance Jews, Samaritans & Gentiles were welcomed into his kingdom.

There is no promise by Jesus or the Apostles of a restored earthly kingdom.

I suggest you agree that the ultimate purpose of God is the glorious & sinless NH&NE. Also that that present time is a Gospel age during which repentant sinners are welcomed into the kingdom, regardless of ethnicity.

God doesn't need an intermediate millennium to fulfill earthly promises - he had the whole OC age to do that - and did as Joshua & Solomon testify.

Jesus first coming, life, death & resurrection were accurately prophesied, though often with surrounding detail & in circumstances that were only clarified with the fulfilment.

While I don't claim perfect understanding, I don't see any conflict between what I believe & teach, & the OC promises, & their NC fulfilment. My understanding is modified as I read & learn. I have moved from the standard amil understanding to the partial Preterist understanding.

I'll consider John's eschatology in a future post.

 

Discuss Bible novice with someone else.

Mill means 1000.

That such a novice would post that it has nothing to do with the last times, I point to Rev. 20:

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

Certainly, even a novice can read the clear teaching given by John.

Either one believes what John wrote, or they do not and then must consider him incapacitated from the truth. At that point all prophecy then is called into question, and even the validity of the Lord Jesus Christ being who He claimed.

The time line is firmly established, repeated, and reinforced by specific events that will transpire.

Therefore, I will take the Apostle John at face value, and leave the novices to hammer out their own schemes resulting in heretical failure.

 

Two thoughts:
One there is a difference between the tabernacle (temporary tent) and the Temple.
Second, what we consider "physical" as concerning the previous temples in Jerusalem were copies. They were real, they were seen, touched, smelled, ... but they were copies not the original. The original is in heaven.

4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are already priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5The place where they serve is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”a​

What is remarkable (imo) is that the very enemies of God have tread throughout the heavens, the heavenly temple, and all creation.

How and at what time will such be purged? Rev. 20:

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.​

This is why there is no temple in New heaven in which a copy may be made on earth.

What then takes the place of the temple in the new heaven? Again, in Rev. 21:

22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

There are no copies in the new heaven and earth. Only "the real thing."

I disagree. Here is the passage: Romans 11:

Because of space I will not include all the passage, but Paul is stating very infatically that the social / political group called Israel will in fact be brought by God's grace into repentance and salvation. Here specifically it states:

25Lest you (Gentiles) be wise in your (Gentiles) own sight, I do not want you (Gentiles) to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28As regards the gospel, they (Isreal) are enemies for your (Gentiles) sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
​

Now the bolds and paranthasis is added so the readers may understand.

No exactly, rather the Lord set aside the nation of Israel as shown in the passage above, that Gentiles be grafted into the believing. He did not bring the promises (again, as shown in the above passage) to an conclusion. Rather, He enlarged the promise to include Gentiles, and later those of the Jews to be redeemed.

Not that you would scheme, but the prophets give more writing to that kingdom than to the first advent. So, why dismiss it? If they were accurate in what they wrote of that time, WHY dismiss it as accurate of the future? Especially when far more was written, both the the OT, and more especially to the Gentiles what John laid out in the Revelation?

The conjuring of the non-premil thinking is just so contrary to that presented when taken as valid and reliable.

God is not "need(y)" at all. His love compels.

As such, He made certain covenants, and prophetic statements which are binding.

That humankind doesn't consider them needful are in no manner compulsory for them not to be fulfilled.

 

It is true that the Scriptures repeat the phrase, that what was written be fulfilled, however the clarification was for the benefit of making the statements valid from the Human perspective. Where before, certain argued and were divided (example: Sadducee no resurrection, Pharisees resurrection) John is able to state, "These things are written that you may know you have...."

However, if you are suggesting then that the prophetic statements are not clarified until they are fulfilled, then I cannot agree. The prophets wrote, the words are given. What is left to humankind is to take that which is believable and correct in their own minds as valid, and that which is not Just as valid based upon the reliability of what has been shown.

Clarification (making clear) may not come, even as Paul states, "we see as through a much smudged window...) (my paraphrasing). Yet, such is not needed.

What is needed is simply, "God said it, I believe it" teaching and presentation.

Humankind are not given to "know all mysteries." Even John was told to seal up some of the prophecy. It will remain a secret until the time necessary.

The acceptance of a literal, physical, future reign of Christ upon this earth, just as the OT and NT statements present, cannot be sacrificed for any view.

If one does, then what is presented must be considered heretical. Such has acquired that level of refusal, because of the very refusal of such schemes to take the Scriptures as valid in presenting that which will take place.

Claims that would discredit the virgin birth, the atonement, the resurrection, ... are heretical. So to is any scheme that would question the clear teaching of the physical return of Christ to rule the earth for 1000 years. If the others matters are presented in Scriptures as reliable, so to is this matter of the future kingdom rule.

 

Whose swinging?

I have no problem with John stating an exact number of years, just as I have no problem with him stating in what condition he saw the Lord when he spoke.

Did not that same John write:

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
​

So, by what authority do you not take John as not very specific when repeating the exact same number of years multiple times within a single passage, yet would take seriously accurate the single statement above?

Swinging? Nope.

 

I quoted John.

How dare you call the Scripture I quoted in the above posts as from Satan!

That is extremely bad!

Can you find any place in Scripture in which the EXACT number of years is repeated as that found in John's writing of the 1000 year reign?

One would think that you would be more careful in what you aligned as satanic, fleshly, and misinterpretation.

Any view that does not support a literal physical return of Christ to rule this world for 1000 years following exactly what the Apostle John wrote, is heretical for such schemes invalidate the truth and present views contrary to the Scriptures.

 

A significant feature of Revelation 20 is that it is at the end of John's visions, & at the end of the Bible, after the prophecies of the OC prophets, Jesus & the Apostles (including John) have been written.

A further observation is that Revelation was written with a sense of urgency, the opening verses calling for immediate attention. While the letters to the churches are specific, they are intended for readers & hearers down the ages to heed. We can certainly study Revelation to learn how to live in troubled times as is the amil procedure.

The Revelation is concerned with the destruction of Jerusalem, Rev. 11 being particularly concerned with the temple, with allusions to Isaiah's denunciation of Jerusalem (Isaiah 1:10, Rev. 11:8) and Jesus' warning in Luke 16:29-31. Rev. 18:24 is an allusion to Jesus' warning to the Scribes & Pharisees in Mat. 23:35-36.

When we consider the seals, we see an allusion to Ezekiel 14:21-23, where God warns Jerusalem of 4 dreadful judgments - sword, famine, wild beasts & plague. See Rev. 6:8.

Whatever other lessons amil teachers read in Revelation, it seems clear that the visions concern the judgment against Jerusalem & the deliverance of the believers. We can see the 144,000 faithful Israelites, firstfruits, as a symbolic complete number of believing Jews, including those who were protected from the "four winds" that would destroy the city & the land.

I do not believe that the Revelation is "stand-alone" prophecy. We need to read it in parallel with other prophetic writings, particularly the Gospels & Epistles.

 

There is a tendency for premils to treat Revelation as a stand-alone end times prophecy that concerns the events after Jesus returns.

And a tendency for amils to treat the prophecies of Revelation as non-specific events taking place throughout the present millennium.

Many correctly see the Revelation as including a series of iterations as the prophecy unfolds from the sealed scroll, through the warning trumpets to the vials of wrath poured out.

Taking Jesus' Olivet prophecy as the key to understanding Revelation, we see two sets of "end times." The end of the OC at the AD 70 destruction & the end of the Gospel age when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment. Jesus spoke of the destruction as coming in clouds when those who pierced him would see him. We can see with our eyes & see with our understanding. The Jews who rejected Jesus saw him in the flesh, saw his miracles, but did not see him with understanding. They mocked him as a promise breaker as they lived on for 35 years after the crucifixion. (2 Peter 3) And then they saw him in the prophesied days of vengeance as Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed.

In Rev. 4 John sees everything wonderful in heaven & in 5 he sees the sealed scroll. A scroll that contains "things which must take place after this.” And he sees Jesus, the Lion-Lamb who by his triumph at Calvary can open the seals.

Revelation 4-5

Holy, holy, holy Lord God,
Praise the Lord of heaven and earth.
Jesus, Lion, stands in triumph,
Jesus, Lamb, the sacrifice.
Blessing, honour, glory, power
To the Father and the Son;
Now sealed scrolls will all be opened;
Now God's plans will be made known.

​

 

The opening of the seals presents God's plan of action, but for which scenario?
The AD 70 destruction?
Events until Jesus' return?
Yet future end times?

Rev. 6 - the 4 horsemen; I understand these to be -
Christ the victorious one;
2, 3 & 4 are angelic beings implementing God's plan for the land. The 4 means of death were predicted for Jerusalem in Ezekiel 14. Note that the word for land "GE" (as in geography) has a range of meanings including soil, a country, the planet.
See Strong 1093 ge
The likelihood is that, in context, "ge" means the land of Judea.

The fifth seal shows the martyrs, safe under the altar, but appealing for vengeance while the perpetrators of their persecution live on, .

The sixth seal shows the wrath of God & the Lamb poured out on the wicked. The graphic details are similar to judgments portrayed in the OC Scriptures. See e.g. Isaiah 13 describing the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes. Note 2 the warning of Jesus in Luke 23:30 fulfilled in vs. 15-17.

Rev. 7 seems to be an interlude, when the protected situation of the faithful Israelites & others suffering tribulation is considered in the light of the coming destruction - the 4 winds striking the land. The Lamb will be their Shepherd!

The seventh seal, 8:1, brings silence & prayer as the significance of the seals is contemplated.

 

Alan, I am familiar with Hendriksen's line of interpretation. About 25 years ago I preached through Revelation using a similar interpretation as my guide. But I didn't stop reading & researching.

I don't cut & paste, apart from Scripture - I write my own posts. It would be helpful if you separated your own writing from other peoples. Hendriksen is unlikely to respond if I reply to his points.

Consider what I write, & the supporting Scriptures. You may modify your understanding.

 

I have replied to specific points by private conversation.

It does certainly matter if the Bible is misinterpreted, & if there is no understanding, one shouldn't be teaching.

"Mill" is from the Latin for 1,000 so millennium means 1,000 years. Latin was the common language for the Bible (Vulgate) for over 1,000 years & was used in British schools & universities until recently. I learnt Latin at school. See -

Rev. 20:2 et adprehendit draconem serpentem antiquum qui est diabolus et Satanas et ligavit eum per annos mille​

That doesn't justify premil teaching, but it does call for understanding & interpretation.

Matthew 24 is primarily concerned with the destruction of temple & Jerusalem that took place in AD 70 - before the generation that rejected its Messiah had passed away. Note the transition between vs

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[fn] but My Father only. ​

The events of Revelation include the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem - see Rev. 11, so yes, we should read Revelation alongside Mat. 24.

 

We are in close agreement. However, those verses include vs. 29-31 which must refer to Jesus coming veiled by clouds, as alluded to in Rev. 1:7, where "earth" is the translation of "GE" which often refers to the "land" of Israel.

I agree that vs. 35-51 refer to end of the world (or age.) I understand those verses to be general advice for Christian living, always ready to meet our Lord coming from heaven for resurrection & judgment.

We are living in a lost world, under deferred judgment. It is a Gospel age during which our God is allowing time for repentance.

However, my understanding of Revelation as Hendriksen & other amil writers, is that Rev. 20 refers to Christ's victory & binding of Satan for the Gospel age. Thus Mat. 24:35-51 teaches how to live during the Gospel age (aka the millennium.) In that there is no real difference concerning Christian living in the Acts period & after. The prophetic warnings of Peter & Jude are not dated.

 

Didn't God already put an end to the Mosaic covenant by ultimately pronouncing the curses from the original covenant first on the Northern Kingdom and then on Judah? (Before Jesus came along.)

Now only the Covenant of Adam (Eve), Abraham and David remain to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ ... who pruned away the Mosaic followers that were not children of Abraham and grafted in the Gentiles ... fulfilling the old Covenants to create a new and better Covenant of Grace.