Shotgun Apologetics...

I have none of those excuses (well, age is beginning to be a factor), yet I find that lengthy posts make my eyes glaze over.

Generally, it's along the lines of this:

Poster A: Catholicism is a cult.
Poster B: No, it isn't.
Poster C: Yes, it is. They pray to dead people.
Poster B: No, they pray through "Saints who have gone before," believing that the Book of Hebrews and deuterocanonical writings encourage such.
Poster C: Oh yeah, well Catholics did the Inquisition and killed Baptists and eat babies!!11!1!

and so on.

 

tragic pizza,

Never seen it go like that.

More like this...

Evangelical...

Catholic...

Evangelical...

Catholic...

Evangelical...

Catholic...

Evangelical...

Catholic...

Evangelical...

Catholic...

Evangelical...

Evangelical...

Catholic...

and on and on and on it goes....

Mike

 

Wow absolutely on the money there.

 

You must concede that the "Hail Mary" is a prayer TO Mary. "Pray for us sinners now" is a request directed straight TO Mary.

What is the definition of "dead"? Do the Catholics redefine "dead" to fit their own theology?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is both a Biblical and a clinical definition of death. Many times I have stood or sat beside someone's loved one and watched as they have passed out into eternity--whether heaven or hell. The spirit leaves the body. That is death. The life departs. The soul or spirit departs.

Mary is dead. Peter is dead. Paul is dead. John is dead. In fact all of the apostles are dead. The only one that is alive is Christ.
"I serve a risen Saviour; He's in the world today.
I know that He is living...

I have a personal relationship with a living Saviour, not a dead prophet.
To pray to Mary is akin to necromancy, something strictly condemned in the Old Testament.

Where did Saul go when he wanted to speak with Samuel who was already "dead"?
If Samuel was "alive" in heaven or paradise, why didn't Saul just pray to him.
No, Saul went to the witch of Endor. He went to someone whom he thought could communicate with the "dead," that is, the dead spirits. Dead means separated. Their spirits were separated from their bodies.

You are praying to the dead when you pray to Mary. Mary is dead. She is not alive. Her body has been buried, as has every other beleiver's. The resurrection has not yet taken place, and they will be considered dead until their spirits are joined together with their bodies in the resurrection.
So again I ask you: why do you insist on praying to the dead? BTW, Praying TO someone is a form of worship.
DHK

 

So, DHK, you endorse soul sleep as well as the seventh Day Adventist cult? Mary's soul is in paradise, heaven, with Christ. We really don't know whether they can see us, know us, hear us..the scriptures are really silent on that detail.

I do, however, recall a scripture where two dead souls appeared with an earthly person. Perhaps that was just allegory.

Cheers,

Jim

Hail Mary, mother of God,
pray FOR us sinners, now,
and in the hour of our death....No worship there, just a prayerful request for assistance.

 

No I don't endorse SDA doctrine. Soul sleep is heresy.
The Bible says:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Though their spirits may be present with the Lord, as was Samuel's (indicated in Scripture), there is no excuse to pray to them. Prayer is worship. Only God is to be worshiped. Worship belongs to God alone. To worship any other is idolatry, one of the worst possible sins a believer can commit. It is spelled out clearly in the Ten Commandments. God demands our worship. He is a jealous God, as the Bible describes and condemns the worship of others. Prayer to others is the worship of others. Read the prayers by Catholics made to Mary. They are worship. "Hail Mary full of grace" is worship. It cannot be denied. It is idolatry.
DHK

 

I adore my wife....Now, the dictionary definition of adore includes,,,"worship as divine"....So, I am not to adore my wife? I pay homage to my Queen....oh, oh,,that means paying dutiful reverence.......... If you play on every word in the English language without a context you can come up with a myriad of taboos.

I don't buy into that narrow etymology.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Rev. Jim said all that needs be said.
In Christ,
Nate

 

Conceeded. And "to pray" means simply "to ask"; e.g. "Your honor, the defendent prays the court to have mercy". Pray tell me, do you think "pray" always means worship?</font>[/QUOTE]YES! What you suggest is a cop-out, a red herring, nothing to do with the subject, a typical Catholic answer, in short foolishness. The Bible does not waste its time on dictionary meanings of variuos words. If you want all the meanings of the English word "pray" then look them up in a dictionary. That is not the subject here. We are not having a linguistics course. Stay on topic. The subject is prayer--man's spirit communicating with God. That has always been the definition of prayer until the Catholics came along and perverted it.

1 Samuel 1:10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
1 Samuel 1:12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
1 Samuel 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

Hannah gives a good example of what prayer is.
1. She prayed "to the Lord."
2. She wept and beseeched the Lord. It was the Lord that she was communicating with. Only the Lord was involved.
3. Her prayer was from the heart. It wasn't vain repetition. It wasn't saying the rosary. It was prayer that came straight from Hannah's heart.
4. Her voice was not heard, but her lips moved. She didn't have to speak audibly to pray, for her prayer came from her heart. It is communication between the supplicant and God, and God alone. Any other form of prayer is idolatry.

Here is what Easton's Bible Dictionary says about prayer:

Prayer is worship. It is directed to God alone and never to any other but God. Quit playing the game of semantics. We are speaking of the Biblical definition of prayer--communication between man and God. Any other prayer is not Biblical.
DHK

 

I tell you again. Quit playing semantics. This is not a linguistics course. Note the difference. I used for you "Easton's Bible Dictionary for the meaning of prayer. It gave the meaning of prayer with all the appropriate Scriptural references.
You used a secular dictionary in order that you could continue to play your game of semantics.
DHK

 

Oh "really". Why don't you go ahead and provide such a mythical test?

Do you claim this is a seance? Communion with the dead? Surely "conjuring the dead" could never be so "explicit as what you just described - so by all means "show it"!!

But as you do remember what Jude says as he quotes "The Assumption of Moses" and remember what we find in 2Kings 2 where Elijah is translated to heaven - directly by God.

Instead of the pagan notion of conjuring up the dead to "have a chat" Matt 17 shows us GOD the Son speaking with the resurrected Moses and the directly-translated Elijah!

Sadly for those inclined to pray TO the dead (to consult the dead on behalf of the living - and/or consult the dead on behalf of other dead saints -- God's prohibition against communion with the dead "stands"!

next!

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You must concede that the "Hail Mary" is a prayer TO Mary. "Pray for us sinners now" is a request directed straight TO Mary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PURE "Gaming!"!!

The RCC ITSELF FORBIDS "prayer" TO the Living!!

All these examples of requests made to the living ARE NOT what is being spoken of AT ALL!

The RCC FORBIDS what you do to Mary - as a dead saint - IF you should attempt to PRAY in that way to a living person.

The Obfuscation attempted above - (as if they are all the same thing) is totally bogus EVEN by RC Standards!!

Why resort to such gaming??

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Seventh Day Adventists disallow any praying because the saints are all asleep. Of course, Jesus having a vivid imagination thought two dead men were actually speaking. They appeared in the vision to be Moses and Elias..oh my,,scripture must have missed out here. Do not fear, Captain Ellen is here,,,wait, she is dead..oh right, she speaks from her book, like no other can.

Tiresome, tiresome,

Cheers,

Jim

 

Oh "really". Why don't you go ahead and provide such a mythical test?

Do you claim this is a seance? Communion with the dead? Surely "conjuring the dead" could never be so "explicit as what you just described - so by all means "show it"!!

But as you do remember what Jude says as he quotes "The Assumption of Moses" and remember what we find in 2Kings 2 where Elijah is translated to heaven - directly by God.

Instead of the pagan notion of conjuring up the dead to "have a chat" Matt 17 shows us GOD the Son speaking with the resurrected Moses and the directly-translated Elijah!

Sadly for those inclined to pray TO the dead (to consult the dead on behalf of the living - and/or consult the dead on behalf of other dead saints -- God's prohibition against communion with the dead "stands"!

next!

</font>[/QUOTE]Did I already post that Jim?

Yes? I thought so.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You all are OFF TOPIC.

 

Technically, it is part of worship. We can only intercede and pray for others as we pray to God, and none other. Only the all-powerful, all-knowning, all-present Almighty God can answer those prayers. He is the one we worship. He is the one, the only one, that can answer prayer. It is He whom we worship, and it is to Him whom we pray (worship).
DHK