Shotgun Apologetics...

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I everyone stuck to the original op, the repeating of quotes would not be needed. My attention span is limited due to age and strokes, and frankly, I can't follow lengthy posts anyway.

Cheers,

Jim

I have none of those excuses (well, age is beginning to be a factor), yet I find that lengthy posts make my eyes glaze over.

Generally, it's along the lines of this:

Poster A: Catholicism is a cult.
Poster B: No, it isn't.
Poster C: Yes, it is. They pray to dead people.
Poster B: No, they pray through "Saints who have gone before," believing that the Book of Hebrews and deuterocanonical writings encourage such.
Poster C: Oh yeah, well Catholics did the Inquisition and killed Baptists and eat babies!!11!1!

and so on.

 

[D28guy]

tragic pizza,

"Poster A: Catholicism is a cult.
Poster B: No, it isn't.
Poster C: Yes, it is. They pray to dead people.
Poster B: No, they pray through "Saints who have gone before," believing that the Book of Hebrews and deuterocanonical writings encourage such.
Poster C: Oh yeah, well Catholics did the Inquisition and killed Baptists and eat babies!!11!1!

Never seen it go like that.

More like this...

Evangelical...

Catholicism is a cult because, (insert list of reasons here)

Catholic...

No it isnt.

Evangelical...

They pray to dead people.

Catholic...

No they dont, because(insert ridiculous attempt to justify it here)

Evangelical...

The scriptures command us to never attempt to contact the dead.

Catholic...

Who says they are dead?(diversionary tactic)

Evangelical...

We know they arent actually dead, and so does God. But since they have experienced their earthly physical death, God calls them "the dead" and commands us to never attempt to contact them.

Catholic...

According to whos interpretation? Yours or your friends?(another attempt at diversion)

Evangelical...

"Lets not change the subject, we are clearly admonished to never attempt to contact the dead.

Catholic...

There were no protestant denominations until the 16th century(another diversionary tactic)

Evangelical...

Yes there were, but lets not change the subject. We are to never attempt to contact the dead. So why do Catholics do it?

Who says they are dead? (1st attempt at diversion repeated)

Evangelical...

We've been over than before.

Catholic...

You're a "meany"!(attack the poster)

and on and on and on it goes....

Mike

 

[nate]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:

Poster A: Catholicism is a cult.
Poster B: No, it isn't.
Poster C: Yes, it is. They pray to dead people.
Poster B: No, they pray through "Saints who have gone before," believing that the Book of Hebrews and deuterocanonical writings encourage such.
Poster C: Oh yeah, well Catholics did the Inquisition and killed Baptists and eat babies!!11!1!

Wow absolutely on the money there.

 

[Living_stone]

Saying "Catholics worship dead people" is the same as saying "Evangelicals worhship dead people". Neither is true. Insisting that it is doesn't make it the case.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living_stone:
Saying "Catholics worship dead people" is the same as saying "Evangelicals worhship dead people". Neither is true. Insisting that it is doesn't make it the case.

You must concede that the "Hail Mary" is a prayer TO Mary. "Pray for us sinners now" is a request directed straight TO Mary.

What is the definition of "dead"? Do the Catholics redefine "dead" to fit their own theology?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is both a Biblical and a clinical definition of death. Many times I have stood or sat beside someone's loved one and watched as they have passed out into eternity--whether heaven or hell. The spirit leaves the body. That is death. The life departs. The soul or spirit departs.

Mary is dead. Peter is dead. Paul is dead. John is dead. In fact all of the apostles are dead. The only one that is alive is Christ.
"I serve a risen Saviour; He's in the world today.
I know that He is living...

I have a personal relationship with a living Saviour, not a dead prophet.
To pray to Mary is akin to necromancy, something strictly condemned in the Old Testament.

Where did Saul go when he wanted to speak with Samuel who was already "dead"?
If Samuel was "alive" in heaven or paradise, why didn't Saul just pray to him.
No, Saul went to the witch of Endor. He went to someone whom he thought could communicate with the "dead," that is, the dead spirits. Dead means separated. Their spirits were separated from their bodies.

You are praying to the dead when you pray to Mary. Mary is dead. She is not alive. Her body has been buried, as has every other beleiver's. The resurrection has not yet taken place, and they will be considered dead until their spirits are joined together with their bodies in the resurrection.
So again I ask you: why do you insist on praying to the dead? BTW, Praying TO someone is a form of worship.
DHK

 

[Jim1999]

So, DHK, you endorse soul sleep as well as the seventh Day Adventist cult? Mary's soul is in paradise, heaven, with Christ. We really don't know whether they can see us, know us, hear us..the scriptures are really silent on that detail.

I do, however, recall a scripture where two dead souls appeared with an earthly person. Perhaps that was just allegory.

Cheers,

Jim

Hail Mary, mother of God,
pray FOR us sinners, now,
and in the hour of our death....No worship there, just a prayerful request for assistance.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
So, DHK, you endorse soul sleep as well as the seventh Day Adventist cult? Mary's soul is in paradise, heaven, with Christ. We really don't know whether they can see us, know us, hear us..the scriptures are really silent on that detail.

No I don't endorse SDA doctrine. Soul sleep is heresy.
The Bible says:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Though their spirits may be present with the Lord, as was Samuel's (indicated in Scripture), there is no excuse to pray to them. Prayer is worship. Only God is to be worshiped. Worship belongs to God alone. To worship any other is idolatry, one of the worst possible sins a believer can commit. It is spelled out clearly in the Ten Commandments. God demands our worship. He is a jealous God, as the Bible describes and condemns the worship of others. Prayer to others is the worship of others. Read the prayers by Catholics made to Mary. They are worship. "Hail Mary full of grace" is worship. It cannot be denied. It is idolatry.
DHK

 

[Jim1999]

I adore my wife....Now, the dictionary definition of adore includes,,,"worship as divine"....So, I am not to adore my wife? I pay homage to my Queen....oh, oh,,that means paying dutiful reverence.......... If you play on every word in the English language without a context you can come up with a myriad of taboos.

I don't buy into that narrow etymology.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[nate]

Rev. Jim said all that needs be said.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[Living_stone]

You must concede that the "Hail Mary" is a prayer TO Mary. "Pray for us sinners now" is a request directed straight TO Mary.

Conceeded. And "to pray" means simply "to ask"; e.g. "Your honor, the defendent prays the court to have mercy". Pray tell me, do you think "pray" always means worship?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1) This is speaking of the necessity of works
2) The body is dead, but this says nothing of the spirit.

Mary is dead. Peter is dead. Paul is dead. John is dead. In fact all of the apostles are dead. The only one that is alive is Christ.

What about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

"God is the God of the living, and not the dead. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - at the least - are among then the LIVING.

Where did Saul go when he wanted to speak with Samuel who was already "dead"?
If Samuel was "alive" in heaven or paradise, why didn't Saul just pray to him.

That was necromancy. We do not conjur up the dead. They do not appear, nor do they talk to us. But they are aware of us. They are "a great cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12). And what do witnesses do? Witness.

They present our prayers to God as incense (Rev 5:8) and so do the angels (Rev 8:5).

The Psalms invoke the entire heavenly host to pray with the reader/writer. It's not anti-biblical.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living_stone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You must concede that the "Hail Mary" is a prayer TO Mary. "Pray for us sinners now" is a request directed straight TO Mary.

Conceeded. And "to pray" means simply "to ask"; e.g. "Your honor, the defendent prays the court to have mercy". Pray tell me, do you think "pray" always means worship?</font>[/QUOTE]YES! What you suggest is a cop-out, a red herring, nothing to do with the subject, a typical Catholic answer, in short foolishness. The Bible does not waste its time on dictionary meanings of variuos words. If you want all the meanings of the English word "pray" then look them up in a dictionary. That is not the subject here. We are not having a linguistics course. Stay on topic. The subject is prayer--man's spirit communicating with God. That has always been the definition of prayer until the Catholics came along and perverted it.

1 Samuel 1:10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
1 Samuel 1:12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
1 Samuel 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

Hannah gives a good example of what prayer is.
1. She prayed "to the Lord."
2. She wept and beseeched the Lord. It was the Lord that she was communicating with. Only the Lord was involved.
3. Her prayer was from the heart. It wasn't vain repetition. It wasn't saying the rosary. It was prayer that came straight from Hannah's heart.
4. Her voice was not heard, but her lips moved. She didn't have to speak audibly to pray, for her prayer came from her heart. It is communication between the supplicant and God, and God alone. Any other form of prayer is idolatry.

Here is what Easton's Bible Dictionary says about prayer:

Prayer
is converse with God; the intercourse of the soul with God, not in contemplation or meditation, but in direct address to him. Prayer may be oral or mental, occasional or constant, ejaculatory or formal. It is a "beseeching the Lord" (Ex 32:11); "pouring out the soul before the Lord" (1Sa 1:15); "praying and crying to heaven" (2Ch 32:20); "seeking unto God and making supplication" (Job 8:5); "drawing near to God" (Ps 73:28); "bowing the knees" (Eph 3:14).
Prayer presupposes a belief in the personality of God, his ability and willingness to hold intercourse with us, his personal control of all things and of all his creatures and all their actions.

Acceptable prayer must be sincere (Heb 10:22), offered with reverence and godly fear, with a humble sense of our own insignificance as creatures and of our own unworthiness as sinners, with earnest importunity, and with unhesitating submission to the divine will. Prayer must also be offered in the faith that God is, and is the hearer and answerer of prayer, and that he will fulfil his word, "Ask, and ye shall receive" (Mt 7:7-8; 21:22; Mr 11:24; Joh 14:13-14), and in the name of Christ (Mr 16:20,20; 15:16; Eph 2:18; 5:20; Col 3:17; 1Pe 2:5).

Prayer is of different kinds, secret (Mt 6:6); social, as family prayers, and in social worship; and public, in the service of the sanctuary.

Intercessory prayer is enjoined (Nu 6:23; Job 42:8; Isa 62:6; Ps 122:6; 1Ti 2:1; Jas 5:14), and there are many instances on record of answers having been given to such prayers, e.g., of Abraham (Ge 17:18,20; 18:23-32; 20:7,17-18), of Moses for Pharaoh (Ex 8:12-13,30-31; 9:33), for the Israelites (Ex 17:11,13; 32:11-14,31-34; Nu 21:7-8; De 9:18-19,25), for Miriam (Nu 12:13), for Aaron (De 9:20), of Samuel (1Sa 7:5-12), of Solomon (1Ki 8:1-66; 2Ch 6:1-42), Elijah (1Ki 17:20-23), Elisha (2Ki 4:33-36), Isaiah (2Ki 19:1-37), Jeremiah (Jer 42:2-10), Peter (Ac 9:40), the church (Ac 12:5-12), Paul (Ac 28:8).

No rules are anywhere in Scripture laid down for the manner of prayer or the attitude to be assumed by the suppliant. There is mention made of kneeling in prayer (1Ki 8:54; 2Ch 6:13; Ps 95:6; Isa 45:23; Lu 22:41; Ac 7:60; 9:40; Eph 3:14, etc.); of bowing and falling prostrate (Ge 24:26,52; Ex 4:31; 12:27; Mt 26:39; Mr 14:35, etc.); of spreading out the hands (1Ki 8:22,38,54; Ps 28:2; 63:4; 88:9; 1Ti 2:8, etc.); and of standing (1Sa 1:26; 1Ki 8:14,55; 2Ch 20:9; Mr 11:25; Lu 18:11,13).

If we except the "Lord's Prayer" (Mt 6:9-13), which is, however, rather a model or pattern of prayer than a set prayer to be offered up, we have no special form of prayer for general use given us in Scripture.

Prayer is frequently enjoined in Scripture (Ex 22:23,27; 1Ki 3:5; 2Ch 7:14; Ps 37:4; Isa 55:6; Joe 2:32; Eze 36:37, etc.), and we have very many testimonies that it has been answered (Ps 3:4; 4:1; 6:8; 18:6; 28:6; 30:2; 34:4; 118:5; Jas 5:16-18, etc.).

"Abraham's servant prayed to God, and God directed him to the person who should be wife to his master's son and heir (Ge 24:10-20).

"Jacob prayed to God, and God inclined the heart of his irritated brother, so that they met in peace and friendship (Ge 32:24-30; 33:1-4).

"Samson prayed to God, and God showed him a well where he quenched his burning thirst, and so lived to judge Israel (Jg 15:18-20).

"David prayed, and God defeated the counsel of Ahithophel (2Sa 15:31; 16:20-23; 17:14-23).

"Daniel prayed, and God enabled him both to tell Nebuchadnezzar his dream and to give the interpretation of it (Da 2:16-23).

"Nehemiah prayed, and God inclined the heart of the king of Persia to grant him leave of absence to visit and rebuild Jerusalem (Ne 1:11; 2:1-6).

"Esther and Mordecai prayed, and God defeated the purpose of Haman, and saved the Jews from destruction (Es 4:15-17; 6:7-8).

"The believers in Jerusalem prayed, and God opened the prison doors and set Peter at liberty, when Herod had resolved upon his death (Ac 12:1-12).

"Paul prayed that the thorn in the flesh might be removed, and his prayer brought a large increase of spiritual strength, while the thorn perhaps remained (2Co 12:7-10).

"Prayer is like the dove that Noah sent forth, which blessed him not only when it returned with an olive-leaf in its mouth, but when it never returned at all.", Robinson's Job.

Prayer is worship. It is directed to God alone and never to any other but God. Quit playing the game of semantics. We are speaking of the Biblical definition of prayer--communication between man and God. Any other prayer is not Biblical.
DHK

 

[Living_stone]

YES! What you suggest is a cop-out, a red herring, nothing to do with the subject, a typical Catholic answer, in short foolishness.

No. It's not. It's the truth. To "pray" means "to ask" and all we do is ask for their prayers.

The Bible does not waste its time on dictionary meanings of variuos words.

The bible was written before dictionaries existed, and it wasn't written in English.

If you want all the meanings of the English word "pray" then look them up in a dictionary. That is not the subject here.

Yes, it is. You say Catholics "pray" to the saints, implying that they worship them in a manner which only God should receive.

I say you are wrong, and that they are only asking for prayers from others in the body of Christ, just as if I were to ask you. They are following the biblical model set down in the aforecited passages.

The subject is prayer--man's spirit communicating with God. That has always been the definition of prayer until the Catholics came along and perverted it.

No. Actually "prayer" means asking - always has - and the move to see "prayer" as the same as "worship" is a relatively new change in language.

If you want "prayer" to mean "worship", then no, catholics don't "pray" to saints, but they do still ask their intercession.

Hannah gives a good example of what prayer is.

So does Revelation.

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.(5:8)"

What do you think is going on there? Nobody can worship for you. Not angels. Not elders. But they can present your prayers - your asks and needs - to god. You can do this for me, and I can do this for you, and they can do this for us.

Here is what Easton's Bible Dictionary says about prayer:

Do you want to discuss definitions or don't you?

"If you want all the meanings of the English word "pray" then look them up in a dictionary."

Merriam-Webster says of "Pray":

1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea &lt;pray be careful&gt;
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

So, it CAN mean worship, but often does not.

And it notes

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAgEn to ask,

Prayer is worship.

No. The word "prayer" is english and technically appears nowhere in the bible. It is used in translation to carry across a point. However, it has multiple meanings.

 

[DHK]

I tell you again. Quit playing semantics. This is not a linguistics course. Note the difference. I used for you "Easton's Bible Dictionary for the meaning of prayer. It gave the meaning of prayer with all the appropriate Scriptural references.
You used a secular dictionary in order that you could continue to play your game of semantics.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I do, however, recall a scripture where two dead souls appeared with an earthly person. Perhaps that was just allegory.

Oh "really". Why don't you go ahead and provide such a mythical test?

Do you claim this is a seance? Communion with the dead? Surely "conjuring the dead" could never be so "explicit as what you just described - so by all means "show it"!!

But as you do remember what Jude says as he quotes "The Assumption of Moses" and remember what we find in 2Kings 2 where Elijah is translated to heaven - directly by God.

Instead of the pagan notion of conjuring up the dead to "have a chat" Matt 17 shows us GOD the Son speaking with the resurrected Moses and the directly-translated Elijah!

Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Sadly for those inclined to pray TO the dead (to consult the dead on behalf of the living - and/or consult the dead on behalf of other dead saints -- God's prohibition against communion with the dead "stands"!

next!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You must concede that the "Hail Mary" is a prayer TO Mary. "Pray for us sinners now" is a request directed straight TO Mary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LS said
Conceeded. And "to pray" means simply "to ask"; e.g. "Your honor, the defendent prays the court to have mercy". Pray tell me, do you think "pray" always means worship?

PURE "Gaming!"!!

The RCC ITSELF FORBIDS "prayer" TO the Living!!

All these examples of requests made to the living ARE NOT what is being spoken of AT ALL!

The RCC FORBIDS what you do to Mary - as a dead saint - IF you should attempt to PRAY in that way to a living person.

The Obfuscation attempted above - (as if they are all the same thing) is totally bogus EVEN by RC Standards!!

Why resort to such gaming??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jim1999]

The Seventh Day Adventists disallow any praying because the saints are all asleep. Of course, Jesus having a vivid imagination thought two dead men were actually speaking. They appeared in the vision to be Moses and Elias..oh my,,scripture must have missed out here. Do not fear, Captain Ellen is here,,,wait, she is dead..oh right, she speaks from her book, like no other can.

Tiresome, tiresome,

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim1999:
I do, however, recall a scripture where two dead souls appeared with an earthly person. Perhaps that was just allegory.

Oh "really". Why don't you go ahead and provide such a mythical test?

Do you claim this is a seance? Communion with the dead? Surely "conjuring the dead" could never be so "explicit as what you just described - so by all means "show it"!!

But as you do remember what Jude says as he quotes "The Assumption of Moses" and remember what we find in 2Kings 2 where Elijah is translated to heaven - directly by God.

Instead of the pagan notion of conjuring up the dead to "have a chat" Matt 17 shows us GOD the Son speaking with the resurrected Moses and the directly-translated Elijah!

Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Sadly for those inclined to pray TO the dead (to consult the dead on behalf of the living - and/or consult the dead on behalf of other dead saints -- God's prohibition against communion with the dead "stands"!

next!

</font>[/QUOTE]Did I already post that Jim?

Yes? I thought so.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Petrel]

You all are OFF TOPIC.

 

[Living_stone]

I tell you again. Quit playing semantics. This is not a linguistics course. Note the difference. I used for you "Easton's Bible Dictionary for the meaning of prayer. It gave the meaning of prayer with all the appropriate Scriptural references.
You used a secular dictionary in order that you could continue to play your game of semantics.
DHK

It's not semantics. It's mere reason.

Intercessory prayer is enjoined (Nu 6:23; Job 42:8; Isa 62:6; Ps 122:6; 1Ti 2:1; Jas 5:14),

For brevity, I looked up one passage randomly.

1 Tim 2:1 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;"

This is not worship.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living_stone:


1 Tim 2:1 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;"

This is not worship.

Technically, it is part of worship. We can only intercede and pray for others as we pray to God, and none other. Only the all-powerful, all-knowning, all-present Almighty God can answer those prayers. He is the one we worship. He is the one, the only one, that can answer prayer. It is He whom we worship, and it is to Him whom we pray (worship).
DHK