Shotgun Apologetics...

[Jim1999]

What gives a Bible dictionary authority over the Oxford English Dictionary? If English rules don't apply to English words, then we are left in the lurch on any English understanding.

The important thing is to always understand a word in its context.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Petrel:
You all are OFF TOPIC.

This topic seems to be a bit vague.

As long as posts are "Short" they are not incurring the complaint of the OP.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by SpyHunter:
Call me a dilettante, but what is RC?

In my neck of the woods, an RC is a soft drink, short for Royal Crown Cola. Happens to be a favorite snack of many along with a Moon Pie, and a small bag of peanuts.

A "Hail Mary" is a long football pass, usually thrown by my team, as it is usually behind

at the end of a half or of a game.

Ed

 

[Living_stone]

Technically, it is part of worship.

So now who's stretching words?

You are not worshiping for another. You are praying for them, i.e. asking for their benefit. That is what praying is. When you pray to god, you are asking him something. When you pray about me, you are asking for my sake.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't have a problem praying FOR some one who needs my prayers.

I DO have a problem communicating with the dead.

I DO have a problem making up stories like "Purgatory" and a spiritual bank of "excess suffering"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living_stone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Technically, it is part of worship.

So now who's stretching words?

You are not worshiping for another. You are praying for them, i.e. asking for their benefit. That is what praying is. When you pray to god, you are asking him something. When you pray about me, you are asking for my sake. </font>[/QUOTE]Prayer is always TO God Never to Mary nor any other saint or person. Prayer is communication with God. We beseech God for ourselves and the benefit of others. We also praise Him and thank Him for who He is and what He has done. We do not pray to others for that is idolatry. Please confine yourself to Biblical usages of the subject of prayer.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Petrel:
You all are OFF TOPIC.

This topic seems to be a bit vague.

As long as posts are "Short" they are not incurring the complaint of the OP. </font>[/QUOTE]The OP:

The problems are these:

1) The post is so lengthy that often the person doesn't know where to begin or doesnt have the time to adequately respond. - This doesn't mean the arguement is won or lost for either side...it's just dead.

2) The post has so many topics which could each be given pages and pages of debate, that by squeezing twenty of them into one post Person A forces Person B to give only a vague rebuttal to any given point, instead of being allowed to give the proper ammount of time to each subject.

3) The post has so many lengthy quotes that the person is force to wade through another bonus hour or ten of reading if one want's to get the context proper to the quotes given.

Our last few posts (or even pages) have:
1. not been long posts in general.
2. have been confined to one topic (prayer), not many topics.
3. have not included many lengthy quotes.

Thus we have by example met the objections posted in the OP.
DHK

 

[Living_stone]

I DO have a problem communicating with the dead.

It's pretty simple. You just say "Blessed St. Peter, these Catholics think you can hear me. I don't. If you can and you can answer prayers, then pray for me to the Lord our God that I might know his will". Just saying that should solve your problem right there.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living_stone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I DO have a problem communicating with the dead.

It's pretty simple. You just say "Blessed St. Peter, these Catholics think you can hear me. I don't. If you can and you can answer prayers, then pray for me to the Lord our God that I might know his will". Just saying that should solve your problem right there.

</font>[/QUOTE]James 4:13-14 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Sadly for those inclined to pray TO the dead (to consult the dead on behalf of the living - and/or consult the dead on behalf of other dead saints -- God's prohibition against communion with the dead "stands"!

Do you believe in Investigative Judgement Bob? Because if you do there is certainly no Scripture to support such a claim. And the Saints aren't dead they are in heaven. And since the Church is universal and is in Heaven and on earth, me asking a Saint to pray for me is no more than you standing up in church and asking the "congregation" to pray about something. Except that a person in Heaven has no flesh to contend with.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[D28guy]

nate,

"And the Saints aren't dead they are in heaven. And since the Church is universal and is in Heaven and on earth, me asking a Saint to pray for me is no more than you standing up in church and asking the "congregation" to pray about something."

So, what Catholics do is no different than when I say to someone in church...

"Say, Phil...I have this tendonitis in my elbow, and its been kinda bad today, so could you remember me in prayer? Thanks brother"

Is that about right?

Well, fortunetly I have a great example of a Catholic prayer that you would have us believe is no different than asking a friend to remember you in prayer.

Lets take a look, shall we?...

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother

....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume.

Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you.

Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church.

In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars.

You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people."

– Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950"

That "prayer" comes straight from the pit of hell.

It is idolatry, blasphemy and full blown Goddess worship. And the saddest thing of all is that it is not the exception...it is the NORM for Catholicism.

If you care to deny that what I just posted is the norm for Catholicism, just say so. I will link to a University of Dayton site that will document...with hundreds of RCC sponsored and many times Pope uttered...prayers to Mary that will prove that what I just said is 100% true.

May Almighty God have mercy.

Mike

 

[Living_stone]

If you care to deny that what I just posted is the norm for Catholicism, just say so. I will link to a University of Dayton site that will document...with hundreds of RCC sponsored and many times Pope uttered...prayers to Mary that will prove that what I just said is 100% true.

It will prove only that:

A)Many Catholics, even prominante ones, have a devotion to our lady
B)Many use language which seems outdated today
C)You cannot distinguish yourself between praise (dulia) and worship (latria), which has been a distinction since the bible.

Nobody is worshipping Mary. Mary is a Creature. A magnificant creature - the New Eve and Ark of the New Covenant, the First Christian and the Mother of our Lord, who from that day all generations have called blessed. She is the model of perfect Christianity - a divine submission to God and for that we greatly honor her.

You can continue to say "Catholis worship Mary" and be mistaken. She is a creature. She is not the Creator. No true Orthodox or Catholic person has ever mistaken that fact.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living_stone:

It will prove only that:

A)Many Catholics, even prominante ones, have a devotion to our lady

That devotion is idolatry. As evidenced in the prayer quoted in the above post it is adoration, praise, and prayer to Mary. It is that which should only be directed to God. It is taking away from God and giving to Mary that which is due only to God, and yet Mary is not God. It is blasphemy.

B)Many use language which seems outdated today

Yes, most Baptists do. We read the KJV on a regular basis. Sometimes I even take a look at the 1611 edition of the KJV which you would have a problem reading. Many of us are far more acquainted with the Old English than you are. So this is no excuse.

C)You cannot distinguish yourself between praise (dulia) and worship (latria), which has been a distinction since the bible.

Dulia and latria are a convenient dichotomy of worship invented by the Catholic Church to distinguish between two levels of worship which don't really exist. Worship is worship even if in your mind you give one part of worship a different name so that you can excuse yourself and say it is not worship.
A German Sheperd is a dog.
A Poodle is a dog.
But you say the poodle is not a dog because it is different than the German Shepherd. That is about the same logic you are using in differentiating between dulia and latria. Both are forms of worship whether or not you like it. Prayer is worship. It is but one form of worship, as is singing another form of worship. As I told you before: put away your catechism and study the Bible. It alone is inspired and infallible.

Nobody is worshipping Mary.

The RCC is.

Mary is a Creature. A magnificant creature

And as such she is a sinner saved by grace, just like my wife, and every other believer. If you are going to pray to Mary why not pray to my wife. Is she not good enough for you?

- the New Eve and Ark of the New Covenant,

Yeah right! You have got to be joking!
Adam and Eve were married.
Christ is the new Adam; we know that from Scripture.
If Mary is the new Eve, then Mary is married to Christ Is that your belief? Are Mary and Christ married to each other? The Bible teaches that Mary was a human vessel used in a specific time in history to bring Jesus into this world.

the First Christian

That is not what the Bible says:
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
--There is no evidence that Mary was there at Antioch among the disciples that were there at that time. She wasn't the first "Christian."

and the Mother of our Lord, who from that day all generations have called blessed.

You don't even have this right. There have been others throughout Bible history given that same blessing.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
--What did Jael do to be blessed above women. Read it for yourself:

Judges 5:26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
--God uses different women in different ways, and blesses them for it. She was blessed above women.

She is the model of perfect Christianity - a divine submission to God and for that we greatly honor her.

She is the model of a sinner, just like we all are. She is no better than Peter or Paul or any of the other disciples. They are all sinners. She is no better than Jael who also was called blessed above women. The fact is that she needed to be saved. She needed to put her faith in Jesus Christ herself in order to receive the gift of eternal life. She was no different than any other sinner. She even admitted that she was a sinner.
When Jesus was 8 days old she took him to be circumcised. At that time she also had to be purified. She was required by law to offer to sacrifices. One of those sacrifices was a sin offering. Why would Mary offer a sin offering if she wasn't a sinner?
Why would Mary say: "I rejoice in God my Saviour if she wasn't a sinner in need of a Saviour? She was a sinful woman in need of a Saviour just like any other woman.

You can continue to say "Catholis worship Mary" and be mistaken. She is a creature. She is not the Creator. No true Orthodox or Catholic person has ever mistaken that fact.

Again look at the prayer in the above post, and with a straight and honest face please tell me that that is not worship. If you can say that, then I can say that you are lying. It is worship and adoration. It is veneration. It is something due only to God. It is taking away from God that which is due only to Him. In short, it is idolatry.
DHK

 

[tragic_pizza]

DHK, I have to alost disagree with you on a point: yes, Mary was a sinner, as are we all, but she offers an example of submission to the Divine will which is hard to miss.

Not at all comfortable with all the "New Eve" and "New Ark" stuff, and I think the "first Christian" is arguable, since we do not know the historical facts on the matter, but I have to say that her willingness to give herself completely to God's will is definitely an example we should all attempt to emulate.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
DHK, I have to alost disagree with you on a point: yes, Mary was a sinner, as are we all, but she offers an example of submission to the Divine will which is hard to miss.

Not at all comfortable with all the "New Eve" and "New Ark" stuff, and I think the "first Christian" is arguable, since we do not know the historical facts on the matter, but I have to say that her willingness to give herself completely to God's will is definitely an example we should all attempt to emulate.

Certainly it is, and we give credit where credit is due. But so was the Apostle John, and many others. So was William Carey, Adoniram Judson, David Livingstone, and many other missionaries who have given their lives for Christ. I don't think that Mary should be set on a pedestal any more than any other Christian that was sold out for God, as the afore-mentioned were. She was a woman who in one point in history was chosen by God for a specific purpose (to bring Jesus into this world), and she accomplished that purpose. She is not the mother of God because of it.
DHK

 

[Eric B]

Yeah right! You have got to be joking!
Adam and Eve were married.
Christ is the new Adam; we know that from Scripture.
If Mary is the new Eve, then Mary is married to Christ Is that your belief? Are Mary and Christ married to each other?

That makes it all the more resemble the original "Queen of Heaven", Semiramis, with husband Nimrod reborn as Tammuz.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
DHK, I have to alost disagree with you on a point: yes, Mary was a sinner, as are we all, but she offers an example of submission to the Divine will which is hard to miss.

Not at all comfortable with all the "New Eve" and "New Ark" stuff, and I think the "first Christian" is arguable, since we do not know the historical facts on the matter, but I have to say that her willingness to give herself completely to God's will is definitely an example we should all attempt to emulate.

Certainly it is, and we give credit where credit is due. But so was the Apostle John, and many others. So was William Carey, Adoniram Judson, David Livingstone, and many other missionaries who have given their lives for Christ. I don't think that Mary should be set on a pedestal any more than any other Christian that was sold out for God, as the afore-mentioned were. She was a woman who in one point in history was chosen by God for a specific purpose (to bring Jesus into this world), and she accomplished that purpose. She is not the mother of God because of it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Technically speaking, though, she is the mother of God because of it.

Jesus is God, and Mary, through her willingness to submit to the will of God, bore Him, right?

But good point on William Carey, Adoniram Judson, David Livingstone, St. John, etc. I think, in a way, they should all (including Mary) be put on a pedestal -- not for the purpose of worship, certainly, but as a shining example.

You and I are probably saying the same thing here...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eric B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Yeah right! You have got to be joking!
Adam and Eve were married.
Christ is the new Adam; we know that from Scripture.
If Mary is the new Eve, then Mary is married to Christ Is that your belief? Are Mary and Christ married to each other?

That makes it all the more resemble the original "Queen of Heaven", Semiramis, with husband Nimrod reborn as Tammuz. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I have to agree here - Christ as King with HIS MOTHER as QUEEN does go right back to Semiramis (Ishtar) and Nimrod! The queen marries her son!

When he is slain by his enemies she then claims that he was taken up into heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

The key points for us to remember.

Christ IS King of Kings

Mary is not the Queen -- Not married to Christ.

David's mother was not HIS QUEEN!

Let's get a grip on reality here folks.

The dark ages have ended.

 

[Living_stone]

She was a woman who in one point in history was chosen by God for a specific purpose (to bring Jesus into this world), and she accomplished that purpose. She is not the mother of God because of it.

St. John - who no holier man lived - was not fit to unstrap Christ's sandal, but Mary taught Jesus to put them on. Meditate on that.