Featured The Limited Atonement

1 John 2

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


Everyone who reads it is going to believe it means what it says. Unless they get a theologian's "help".

YOU even believed it. Till someone else suckered you otherwise.

 

agreed.

agreed.

?? Not so sure. Why did Peter speak of false prophets "denying the sovereign Lord who bought them." (2Pet. 2:1). Why did John speak of a universal propitiation, knowing salvation is not universal? (1John 2:2)

Seems this is a little more complicated than you say.

 

You mean everyone who reads the entire letter and knows who John is writing to is going to think just like you?

Perhaps if a person reads the entire letter they will observe what John is saying.

But...why read the entire thing when you can just cherry pick. Right, utilyan.

1 John 1:1-10 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-29 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, becausethe darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name’s sake. I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

 

You can quote genesis to revelations. That still won't produce a Calvinist. Unless he has a theologians help.

Even JOHN CALVIN couldn't produce a Calvinist without theologians help.


Just leave it to what scripture says? I'm far beyond comfortable with that. You can't quote scripture alone to convey your understanding of gospel to a stranger.

 

Wait, what!?
Many, many people come to the same conclusions as John Calvin without ever reading anything Calvin wrote. It doesn't take a theologian to observe what the Bible says. What I did was observe the word chosen throughout all the Bible. It shows you the Sovereignty of God. No theologians needed.

 

utilyan, the error of many cults is not that they deny that Jesus saves, it is that Jesus saves with qualification. IOW they had to the gospel. The mormons believe that Jesus saves. Even the jehovah's witnesses believe that but they infect that belief with their own false teachings. True Christians that believe in particular redemption (limited atonement) believe that Jesus saves by grace alone through faith alone. There is a disagreement among Christians as to the scope and intent of the atonement but that is a domestic argument. It is different than how cults view the atonement.

 

I see this primarily as a conflict over semantics where calvinists and arminians see the meaning of atonement through the lens of their own belief systems.

Would it help reconcile both calvinists and arminians if we said there was "a universal offer of atonement through faith to the end" but only "limited atonement at the end to only those who believe"? We shouldn't be debating universal vs limited atonement - we should be debating if the offer of salvation/atonement is universal or not at the cross.

The issue lies in how we picture God’s work of atonement completed at the cross. It is one thing to say that Christ atoned for only the sins of the elect on the cross. It is another thing for the calvinists to draw an inference from this that Christ died on the cross only for the elect and therein salvation is offered only to the elect and to none else - I disagree with this.

Calvinist Sequential Logic

1. Christ purposes to offer Himself as a sacrifice only for the elect.
2. Christ atones for the sins of only the elect on the cross.
3. Christ offers salvation only to the elect.
4. At the end of time, only the elect believe in Christ
5. Only the elect are saved on Judgement Day.

Now, there is a clear correlation between faith in Christ and forgiveness of sins. And even the calvinist must concede that God does look ahead in all of human time to atone for all the sins of all mankind, including those sins committed in the future from when He died on the cross. If God does factor in future sins of man when atoning on the cross, what’s stopping Him from factoring in human unbelief in Him throughout human time?

Consequently, couldn’t God have based His atonement for sins on the common parameter of who endures in faith till the end (Matt 24:13) – and it is then observed by us in our human timeline that only the elect are preserved in faith by God’s predestined working in them – and (though known by God while not caused) none of the non-elect self-determine to have their sins atoned through faith.

Reconciled Sequential Logic

1. Christ purposes to offer Himself as a sacrifice for the whole world, elect and non-elect.
2. Christ offers salvation to the whole world, elect and non-elect.
3. Looking forward to the end of time, factoring in the non-elect’s self-determinism to this unrestricted offer, only the elect continue believing in Christ and remain in the faith.
4. Christ consequently atones for the sins of only the elect on the cross.
5. Only the elect are saved on Judgement Day.

This way, the offer of salvation to all, elect and non-elect, is reconciled with the doctrine of limited atonement.
The Passover is offered to even those destroyed in the wilderness - but the Atonement is applied to only God's people, who are perfectly saved into His promised Rest.

 

The message of reconciliation is to all humanity.

Only the elect will respond to the message of reconciliation in a positive manner of belief.

Those who don't believe will die in their sins. The atoning blood of Christ will not have been sprinkled upon them. They are still filthy and justly condemned.
Those who believe have the atoning blood of Christ sprinkled upon them. They are washed white as snow. They are not condemned because Christ Jesus has atoned for their sins.

Hebrews 9:11-28 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

Gospel freely offered to all sinners, but intended to only save the Elect, as rest shall freely reject that offer!

 

Particular atonement for elect sinners, as all other still freely reject Jesus to save them from their sins.

 

Let's highlight what comes before 2 Peter 2:1.

2 Peter 1:1,10,12,16,21
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Now look at chapter 2

2 Peter 2:1-3 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2 Peter 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

Now chapter 3

2 Peter 3:1-3 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

2 Peter 3:11-13 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

2 Peter 3:14-15,17-18 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

The letter is understood in whole.

 

I disagree on the intention part. I'd say -

Gospel freely offered to all sinners, intended to be the means of salvation for all sinners, but effective only in saving the Elect, as rest shall freely reject that offer!

 

This is a different issue. Yes, I would agree, the gospel is offered to all but only effective for those who believe. I believe in limited salvation. Certainly Scripture says Christ died for all. But all are not saved, and obviously all are not covered by the work of the Cross.

The only thing I struggle with are some passages that seem to suggest that atonement itself is universal at least in some sense. I've asked these questions many times on this thread, no one has attempted to answer.

In what sense are false teachers bought by our Lord (2Peter 2:1)? In what sense is Christ the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2)? In what sense have lost individuals trampled the blood of the covenant that sanctified them (Heb. 10:29)?

I'm thinking these are difficult passages to reconcile, or I would have at least gotten some kind of reply by now.

 

These are precisely the very same passages that I'd laid out in the other thread "Single Predestination" to show God does indeed begin a supernatural work of redemption in the non-elect too, which they then fall away from as seen in 2Pet 2:20-22, Luk 11:25-26. (You could head over to the thread or find the summary here, if interested in single predestination.)

Isn't this similar to asking in what sense the Israelites were saved by the blood of the passover lamb only to be destroyed by God later (Jude 1:5)? These never received atonement for their sins with God - they died in them under God's wrath. Similarly, the ones who fall away from the faith in Hebrews and Peter were enlightened with the knowledge of the truth by giving them a new heart unto repentance and all this was accomplished by Christ's sacrifice on the cross - I do not see this necessarily implying that they will not die in their sins, ie having received universal atonement.

The 1John verse is less problematic for me personally since I am inclined to read it as Christ being the means of us all receiving atonement - more a statement of a universal fact than an observation of an actual event completed for all. Even if one were to argue that Christ's blood does cover some sins of the perishing, they still have many more for which they will be condemned for - I don't see how that would again account for universal atonement. Let's discuss more after you add in your thoughts to this...

 

Are there any lost sinners in hell that God intended the Cross to have saved then?

 

When are you asking? God did conditionally desire all lost sinners in hell to be saved in the beginning for which He provided the means of redemption, and this was so until they disobeyed in unbelief, filling up their measure of iniquity, after which God intends that they be destroyed in His wrath and so finally there are none in hell that God intends to have saved at that point in time.

Would you say God intended all the Israelites to be saved from Egypt (Jude 1:5)? Are there any dead israelites in the wilderness that God intended to save then? See the gap in semantics?

What you seem to be mixing up with is God's predestination - since you probably assume God predestined condemnation upon the non-elect, you infer that His intents towards them were already made up and cannot be altered based on their disobedience. I hold to single predestination - and so i get to reconcile both a genuine offer of salvation as well as limited atonement.

 

You are contradicting yourself and adding an unnecessary layer.

1. If God intends all sinners to be saved, then either God is weak and cannot fulfill what he intends or God intends only the elect to be saved, which actually happens.
2. If the elect only are saved, there is no requirement that there be free rejection. The rejection is natural. The salvation is willed by God to his elect.

 

I believe in individual predestination, and I've come to a similar conclusion to what you've said above.

Sort of.

The 2 Peter 2:1 verse is not speaking of falling away per se, but rather about false teachers being purchased by our Lord. It's very explicit.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lordc who bought themd—bringing swift destruction on themselves.​

So again in what sense are false teachers (destined for destruction) bought by our Lord? There has to be a sense in which they atoned for.

The problem I have with that is, John could have easily said that, but didn't. Would have made things so much easier, but I'm not looking for easy. John said Jesus was the atoning sacrifice, not could have been the atoning sacrifice.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Again, you make a logical case, but not with valid biblical premises. Scripture must be the sole premise from which we argue. The inspired statements above don't quite fit into your conclusion.