The Limited Atonement

[Particular]

Does Peter not say, false prophets were bought by our Lord?

No, he doesn't. So...who is the master of the false prophets?

 

[Calminian]

No, he doesn't. So...who is the master of the false prophets?

Peter said it. I believe it.

 

[Scott Downey]

I agree, BTW. I don't believe salvation can be lost, nor to I believe salvation is universal.

So I'm left with the only possible resolution: salvation and atonement are not synonymous. That's all I can come up with without completely denying what Peter said.



So you're saying we can't trust Peter because of your logical argument above? Or we have to take Peter as meaning the opposite of what he said for the sake of logic?

You keep making these logical/theological arguments instead of just explaining how this text fits into your theology. But maybe you should tweak the theology before the text.

Truths about the sheep

See your holding onto a singe word in a verse, but your interpretation does not hold with what Christ teaches about the sheep. As Christ is the Master here, then what Christ said is the truth and what Peter wrote has to agree with what Christ teaches, or your understanding is marred.

John 10:1
[ Jesus the True Shepherd ] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:2
But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:3
To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:4
And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:7
[ Jesus the Good Shepherd ] Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:8
All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:12
But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:13
The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:14
I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:22
[ The Shepherd Knows His Sheep ] Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[Particular]

Peter said it. I believe it.

What did Peter say?
Who does Peter say is the "master who bought them?"
Does Peter say their master is Jesus?
Just curious for you to observe the verse.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people,

just as there will be false teachers among you,

who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,

even denying the Master who bought them,

bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Scott Downey]

If Christ 'bought' these false prophets and false teachers, as they are then His prized possession, how did Christ then lose them.
That is against scripture also, Christ does not lose anyone He paid for with His blood, unless you believe Christ can lose people He has saved. Meaning salvation can be lost and the New Birth destroyed.

 

[Scott Downey]

This here well describes these people who were 'bought' further down in Peter's description of them.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

You can see though they have had no inner transformation, the Lord God did not give to them the New Heart nor a New Spirit do they have, they are still the corruption of the man of the flesh, so they have not been born again. So everything about them was only on the outside, as they remained on the inside true to their nature of being dogs, and pigs, so then of an unclean spirit. So they have known the way of righteousness, meaning they have been educated about spiritual things, but never transformed on the inside into a new creation in Christ, so they never were of Christ's sheep. These people were never saved, and did not know the Lord Jesus, and He did not know them.

Since they were never Christ's sheep, and Christ tells us He gives up His life for the sheep, then Christ did not shed His blood for them, so they were never His prized possession of the church purchased by His blood.

Your going to have to drop the idea Christ bought them with His blood. They were 'bought' in some other way. Likely the mention of this escaping the pollutions of the world applies to that, a deliverance by the Lord of a kind, but not an eternal salvation.

 

[Calminian]

What did Peter say?....

that false teachers deny our Lord who bought them. sorry, your argument is with Peter.

 

[Calminian]

....They were 'bought' in some other way....

Okay, like how? Explain what this other kind of purchasing by our Lord might be. I'm all ears.

 

[Calminian]

Truths about the sheep

See your holding onto a singe word in a verse, but your interpretation does not hold with what Christ teaches about the sheep.....

I'm not holding onto a verse, and have not offered an interpretation. I'm merely reading it and believing it, regardless if I can understand it or explain it or reconcile it with other verses.

You say it contradicts your interoperation of other verses. I say, in that case, you may have to fine-tune your other interpretations.

 

[Particular]

that false teachers deny our Lord who bought them. sorry, your argument is with Peter.

You are reading into the verse. Does Peter say "our Lord" in the verse?

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

You are taking one verse, in which Peter doesn't say "our Lord", and making that the verse that defines all other verses in the Bible regarding security of salvation.
You ignore verse 3 and verse 17 to cling to your position.

2 Peter 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2 Peter 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

 

[Calminian]

You are reading into the verse. Does Peter say "our Lord" in the verse?....

In many translations yes. I'm not reading into the verse, I'm reading the verse. I have no idea what you're doing, but it's not reading.

 

[Particular]

In many translations yes. I'm not reading into the verse, I'm reading the verse. I have no idea what you're doing, but it's not reading.

I placed all the verses right there for you. Obviously you are struggling with comprehension of all 3 verses. Instead, you opt for an interpretation that calls 2 of the 3 verses false.

 

[Calminian]

I placed all the verses right there for you. Obviously you are struggling with comprehension of all 3 verses. Instead, you opt for an interpretation that calls 2 of the 3 verses false.

I think you're losing it. You're arguing now based on translations that say master rather than our lord. Honestly, you're not making any sense. and you keep talking about my position. my position is, I believe Peter.

 

[Particular]

I think you're losing it.

I think you're avoiding it

 

[Calminian]

I think you're avoiding it

Okay, but how? I believe everything Peter wrote, including when he said that false prophets were purchased by our Lord. They are doomed to destruction yet purchased. That's what the text says. I believe all of it. Do you?

 

[agedman]

Thank you.
So I simplify this.
God the Father saw God the Son's death as a perfect sacrificial atonement, better than the temple sacrifices. There is no need to break down all the parts to identify the exact moment in which the sacrifice is acceptable. It is enough to know that God said "it is finished" and to read that glorious passage in Hebrews that confirms it.

The question then is whether the blood was sprinkled upon all humanity or upon the elect. The blood cleanses us and makes us white as snow. If it falls upon all humanity then all humanity is made white as snow. If it falls only upon the elect then only the elect are white as snow.

Your post assigns to the blood to what it is not assigned by the Scriptures.

You quoted Isaiah, but the opening of Isaiah was to a different audience. An audience that had to perform for salvation, that had to have demonstrated reform for salvation.

Isaiah 1:

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem​

The appeal was made specifically to Judah and Jerusalem. Here is what God required:

6Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow’s cause.

18“Come now, let us reasonc together, says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”​

Do not grab a verse and expect to smear its use in other areas. It may sound good but is not good and inappropriate.

Believers enjoy these verses, but with the understanding as a believer, not as a heathen attempting to work some magical solution. For example:

When David (a believer) was confronted by Nathan, he spoke in these terms: (Psalms 51)

Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin! ...
...
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.​

This is also reflected in John's first letter to believers:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

What you did was apply what is to believers (or in case of Isaiah the appeal to believe) and make it as if it applied to the whole humanity. It does not.

There is no "whiter than snow" verse attached to the whole of humanity nor to the blood, or such would lead believers to a sinless perfection in which the old holiness methodist taught and is still taught in schools such. as Asbury University.

I do not expect you to accept my view, however, do not discard it by appropriating Scriptures that do not rightly apply.

Here is a truth that is cannot be misappropriated, yet some actually fail in the understanding.

The first letter of John states:

He is the propitiation (blood sprinkled) for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
​

Why do some go to great exercising to make the word "world" as a subset of the whole?

It just is not consistent with John's careful selection of words.

John is so very consistent and precise to use the same words with the same meanings throughout his writing and in that context "world" never refers to a subset of the whole.

Therefore, the bloodshed by the Christ was for ALL sin, from the beginning until the end. When men stand before God, they are not judged upon the quality nor quantity of their sin. Those who do not believe are already condemned. Why would God even make sin an issue? Condemnation is already the condition of that person.

That is also consistent with the OT presentation of the blood sacrifices. The sacrifice was for all in the land, not just a subset of believing Jews among all that are Jews. So it is with the blood of Christ, was for all the land, all part of creation, and not a subset of the whole as some would desire.

HOWEVER, that does in no manner even suggests, as some would desire to express, that some universal salvation is implied, or even offered. Such thinking is excusing sloppy study and just foolishness.

 

[agedman]

This is the problem I have with Calvinism in general. They build a theology on a couple of verses then ignore many other verses that fly in the face of their theology. When you point it out they end up arguing, "that word means something else than the usual meaning", or "that verse is not addressed to the people you claim it is", or some other argument from my list in my sig.

You have a valid argument.

However, there is also validity for attending to the context and the original meaning of the original language, too.

What a true person of Scripture seems to do is not grab onto a systematic view, but take the Scriptures as the undergirding for their own view.

If a view agrees with some statements from a systematic view, then that is fine, but ultimately, as you point out, the view should not modify the Scriptures, but the Scriptures be able to confirm the view.

I would also point out that this is equally problematic with the non-cal presentations where agenda has so locked them into some thinking that that person becomes obstinately rejecting even the Scriptures rightly presented.

 

[agedman]

Imo, @Calminian and @Particular both are correct.

Here is where we as believers might stumble over terms.

When the argument is concerning a single portion of a verse (in this case "bought them") then one needs to look further for balancing and truth.

Purchase does not always mean for salvation, it may also mean bought for the purpose desired.

Judas was chosen for the purpose God desired accomplished.

Did not the Christ state, it was better for Judas to not have been born? (Matthew 26:24)

Peter's focus is not on whether these folks are redeemed, but what is their outcome, their destiny as those purchased for a purpose.

9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulgee in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,f while they feast with you. 14They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slavesh of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the dements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”​

Whether or not some are purchased for redemption or just for a certain purpose, it is not ours to discern.

Peter is not about that theme.

He is about the outcome and the ultimate need of believers to be aware that God has preserved the believers despite all that they may encounter.

 

[agedman]

Another issue that pertains to the believer, especially as it relates to the teaching and living, is that certain warning to not drift.

2 Peter is all about the believers building up themselves.

Some would think that he is actually embracing the thinking that folks may gain heaven by works, but what Peter is about is making certain the believers take personal responsibility for their own growth, and their own character.

Too often in this modern "grace" themed church times, there is the thinking that everything is "under the grace" and that God is not going to hold folks responsible for their character and ungodliness.

Such thinking is totally demolished by 2 Peter.

From the opening of the letter, Peter is all about the character of the believer. Here is an example:

5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
​

It is in this background, that Peter presents a contrasting group. Those who are like the false prophets of the ancients. (2 Peter 2)

Then so that folks don't miss the point, he brings up that wonderful discourse (2 Peter 3) on the final days.

Look at the revisiting of the purpose of his letter:

14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.​

Here is a wonderful writing with a powerful message more often missed in the modern emotional feel-good froth driven settings.

Add to your faith:

virtue,
knowledge,
self-control,
steadfastness,
godliness,
brotherly affection,
love.​

How is it that many believers in this modern times do not have these attributes in their character?

 

[Scott Downey]

Imo, @Calminian and @Particular both are correct.

Here is where we as believers might stumble over terms.

When the argument is concerning a single portion of a verse (in this case "bought them") then one needs to look further for balancing and truth.

Purchase does not always mean for salvation, it may also mean bought for the purpose desired.

Judas was chosen for the purpose God desired accomplished.

Did not the Christ state, it was better for Judas to not have been born? (Matthew 26:24)

Peter's focus is not on whether these folks are redeemed, but what is their outcome, their destiny as those purchased for a purpose.

9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulgee in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,f while they feast with you. 14They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slavesh of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the dements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”​

Whether or not some are purchased for redemption or just for a certain purpose, it is not ours to discern.

Peter is not about that theme.

He is about the outcome and the ultimate need of believers to be aware that God has preserved the believers despite all that they may encounter.

Since you have shown your opinion here, and to better understand the points your arguing in favor of, your views, what is your opinion on the atonement, is it universal atonement, or limited atonement?