Shotgun Apologetics...

What gives a Bible dictionary authority over the Oxford English Dictionary? If English rules don't apply to English words, then we are left in the lurch on any English understanding.

The important thing is to always understand a word in its context.

Cheers,

Jim

 

This topic seems to be a bit vague.

As long as posts are "Short" they are not incurring the complaint of the OP.

 

In my neck of the woods, an RC is a soft drink, short for Royal Crown Cola. Happens to be a favorite snack of many along with a Moon Pie, and a small bag of peanuts.

A "Hail Mary" is a long football pass, usually thrown by my team, as it is usually behind at the end of a half or of a game.

Ed

 

I don't have a problem praying FOR some one who needs my prayers.

I DO have a problem communicating with the dead.

I DO have a problem making up stories like "Purgatory" and a spiritual bank of "excess suffering"

In Christ,

Bob

 

So now who's stretching words?

You are not worshiping for another. You are praying for them, i.e. asking for their benefit. That is what praying is. When you pray to god, you are asking him something. When you pray about me, you are asking for my sake. </font>[/QUOTE]Prayer is always TO God Never to Mary nor any other saint or person. Prayer is communication with God. We beseech God for ourselves and the benefit of others. We also praise Him and thank Him for who He is and what He has done. We do not pray to others for that is idolatry. Please confine yourself to Biblical usages of the subject of prayer.
DHK

 

This topic seems to be a bit vague.

As long as posts are "Short" they are not incurring the complaint of the OP. </font>[/QUOTE]The OP:

Our last few posts (or even pages) have:
1. not been long posts in general.
2. have been confined to one topic (prayer), not many topics.
3. have not included many lengthy quotes.

Thus we have by example met the objections posted in the OP.
DHK

 

It's pretty simple. You just say "Blessed St. Peter, these Catholics think you can hear me. I don't. If you can and you can answer prayers, then pray for me to the Lord our God that I might know his will". Just saying that should solve your problem right there. </font>[/QUOTE]James 4:13-14 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

 

Do you believe in Investigative Judgement Bob? Because if you do there is certainly no Scripture to support such a claim. And the Saints aren't dead they are in heaven. And since the Church is universal and is in Heaven and on earth, me asking a Saint to pray for me is no more than you standing up in church and asking the "congregation" to pray about something. Except that a person in Heaven has no flesh to contend with.
In Christ,
Nate

 

nate,

So, what Catholics do is no different than when I say to someone in church...

"Say, Phil...I have this tendonitis in my elbow, and its been kinda bad today, so could you remember me in prayer? Thanks brother"

Is that about right?

Well, fortunetly I have a great example of a Catholic prayer that you would have us believe is no different than asking a friend to remember you in prayer.

Lets take a look, shall we?...

That "prayer" comes straight from the pit of hell.

It is idolatry, blasphemy and full blown Goddess worship. And the saddest thing of all is that it is not the exception...it is the NORM for Catholicism.

If you care to deny that what I just posted is the norm for Catholicism, just say so. I will link to a University of Dayton site that will document...with hundreds of RCC sponsored and many times Pope uttered...prayers to Mary that will prove that what I just said is 100% true.

May Almighty God have mercy.

Mike

 

That devotion is idolatry. As evidenced in the prayer quoted in the above post it is adoration, praise, and prayer to Mary. It is that which should only be directed to God. It is taking away from God and giving to Mary that which is due only to God, and yet Mary is not God. It is blasphemy.

Yes, most Baptists do. We read the KJV on a regular basis. Sometimes I even take a look at the 1611 edition of the KJV which you would have a problem reading. Many of us are far more acquainted with the Old English than you are. So this is no excuse.

Dulia and latria are a convenient dichotomy of worship invented by the Catholic Church to distinguish between two levels of worship which don't really exist. Worship is worship even if in your mind you give one part of worship a different name so that you can excuse yourself and say it is not worship.
A German Sheperd is a dog.
A Poodle is a dog.
But you say the poodle is not a dog because it is different than the German Shepherd. That is about the same logic you are using in differentiating between dulia and latria. Both are forms of worship whether or not you like it. Prayer is worship. It is but one form of worship, as is singing another form of worship. As I told you before: put away your catechism and study the Bible. It alone is inspired and infallible.

The RCC is.

And as such she is a sinner saved by grace, just like my wife, and every other believer. If you are going to pray to Mary why not pray to my wife. Is she not good enough for you?

Yeah right! You have got to be joking!
Adam and Eve were married.
Christ is the new Adam; we know that from Scripture.
If Mary is the new Eve, then Mary is married to Christ Is that your belief? Are Mary and Christ married to each other? The Bible teaches that Mary was a human vessel used in a specific time in history to bring Jesus into this world.

That is not what the Bible says:
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
--There is no evidence that Mary was there at Antioch among the disciples that were there at that time. She wasn't the first "Christian."

You don't even have this right. There have been others throughout Bible history given that same blessing.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
--What did Jael do to be blessed above women. Read it for yourself:

Judges 5:26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
--God uses different women in different ways, and blesses them for it. She was blessed above women.

She is the model of a sinner, just like we all are. She is no better than Peter or Paul or any of the other disciples. They are all sinners. She is no better than Jael who also was called blessed above women. The fact is that she needed to be saved. She needed to put her faith in Jesus Christ herself in order to receive the gift of eternal life. She was no different than any other sinner. She even admitted that she was a sinner.
When Jesus was 8 days old she took him to be circumcised. At that time she also had to be purified. She was required by law to offer to sacrifices. One of those sacrifices was a sin offering. Why would Mary offer a sin offering if she wasn't a sinner?
Why would Mary say: "I rejoice in God my Saviour if she wasn't a sinner in need of a Saviour? She was a sinful woman in need of a Saviour just like any other woman.

Again look at the prayer in the above post, and with a straight and honest face please tell me that that is not worship. If you can say that, then I can say that you are lying. It is worship and adoration. It is veneration. It is something due only to God. It is taking away from God that which is due only to Him. In short, it is idolatry.
DHK

 

DHK, I have to alost disagree with you on a point: yes, Mary was a sinner, as are we all, but she offers an example of submission to the Divine will which is hard to miss.

Not at all comfortable with all the "New Eve" and "New Ark" stuff, and I think the "first Christian" is arguable, since we do not know the historical facts on the matter, but I have to say that her willingness to give herself completely to God's will is definitely an example we should all attempt to emulate.

 

Certainly it is, and we give credit where credit is due. But so was the Apostle John, and many others. So was William Carey, Adoniram Judson, David Livingstone, and many other missionaries who have given their lives for Christ. I don't think that Mary should be set on a pedestal any more than any other Christian that was sold out for God, as the afore-mentioned were. She was a woman who in one point in history was chosen by God for a specific purpose (to bring Jesus into this world), and she accomplished that purpose. She is not the mother of God because of it.
DHK

 

That makes it all the more resemble the original "Queen of Heaven", Semiramis, with husband Nimrod reborn as Tammuz.

 

Certainly it is, and we give credit where credit is due. But so was the Apostle John, and many others. So was William Carey, Adoniram Judson, David Livingstone, and many other missionaries who have given their lives for Christ. I don't think that Mary should be set on a pedestal any more than any other Christian that was sold out for God, as the afore-mentioned were. She was a woman who in one point in history was chosen by God for a specific purpose (to bring Jesus into this world), and she accomplished that purpose. She is not the mother of God because of it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Technically speaking, though, she is the mother of God because of it.

Jesus is God, and Mary, through her willingness to submit to the will of God, bore Him, right?

But good point on William Carey, Adoniram Judson, David Livingstone, St. John, etc. I think, in a way, they should all (including Mary) be put on a pedestal -- not for the purpose of worship, certainly, but as a shining example.

You and I are probably saying the same thing here...

 

That makes it all the more resemble the original "Queen of Heaven", Semiramis, with husband Nimrod reborn as Tammuz. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I have to agree here - Christ as King with HIS MOTHER as QUEEN does go right back to Semiramis (Ishtar) and Nimrod! The queen marries her son!

When he is slain by his enemies she then claims that he was taken up into heaven.

 

The key points for us to remember.

Christ IS King of Kings

Mary is not the Queen -- Not married to Christ.

David's mother was not HIS QUEEN!

Let's get a grip on reality here folks.

The dark ages have ended.