KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

Romans 9:14-23 (NKJV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory

 

But how can one believe in Christ, call upon God,or do righteousness without God first changing his heart? A vessel dead in sin cannot up and say, I decide to be righteous, I decide to believe...

 

This has gotten way off topic, but Romans 9 is discussing Israel, a nation of people God was judging as opposed to Gentiles whom He was spreading His grace to, not individual people or everyone in a particular group being predestined for eternal wrath as opposed to other individual people being elected for grace. Check the CONTEXT.

 

Still, does that make election untrue?

 

God declares that He is "DRAWING ALL MANKIND to HIMSELF" John 12:32.

Dustin is arguing that God CAN NOT draw mankind without FIRST causing the lost to BE saved.

Instead of being able to DRAW THEM to a point of salvation as the Bible says - the Calvinist argument is that God MUST first SAVE THEN DRAW because He can not manage to do it the way He claims to be doing it - DRAW and THEN save.

But that says more about how Calvinism fails at "being God" than it does about God not actually doing what He claims to do in DRAWING the LOST to Himself.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What about John 6:65?

 

And why does Chirst in John 17 pray not for the world, but for who the Father gave him?

 

Gospel 101.

John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave..." Yes really!

1John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" -- yes "really".

1John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" -- Yes really!

Rom 2:11-13 "There is NO paritiality with God" --- Yes really!

2Peter 3 " God is NOT WILLING for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" -- Yes "really"!

The Arminian POV is based on ACCEPTING the Bible where the Calvinist view requires rejection of it.

Then the Calvinist response is invariably "failed attempts to BE God" in trying to out-think HOW HE does IT!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Rev 3 we have the Gospel101 lesson perfectly illustrated

"Behold I stand at the door and knock" -- Christ on the OUTSIDE. The Sinner, lost and alone on the INSIDE without Christ, without hope.

"IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS THE DOOR" -- Christ on the OUTSIDE is knocking but NOT tearing down the door! He WAITS for the one on the INSIDE to OPEN!!

And when they do--- "FELLOWSHIP" results
"I WILL come in and dine WITH him"

In Christ,

Bob

 

Oh Bob, I do not want to be God. I just believe that salvation is of the Lord, and none of me. He changed my heart, without his grace, then I would still be dead in my sins. The arminian POV is based on man sharing the glory of salvation with God. I don't believe in that. If God would not have changed my evil heart, then I would have rejected the Gospel, like I did for the first 23 years of my life. I just believe in the soveriegnty of God. I believe in predestination, it's biblical, I believe in election, it's biblical. If none of that is biblical then Lord help me see the truth!

 

Bob sez "Dustin is arguing that God CAN NOT draw mankind without FIRST causing the lost to BE saved."

I don't argue God CAN NOT, but DOES NOT.

If it were God's will that all would be saved, all would be in heaven.

God draws whom He chooses, to believe and be saved.

He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

 

[ May 11, 2006, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: Dustin ]

 

Dustin,

Do you agree with this statement:

Those whom God chooses are the "whosoeverwills".

Mike

 

Has anyone els read the first 10 verses of Ephesians which explains that all believers were presdestined to adoption as sons by Christ to himself, according to the pleasure of His will?

SD28guy sez "Do you agree with this statement:

Those whom God chooses are the "whosoeverwills".


Again if we're spiritually dead in our sins, how can we WILL to believe in Christ? If we, by nature, will not seek God, how can we do so without God changing our hearts, and unstopping our ears, and unblinding our eyes? WE cannot make that change, only God can.


Claudia sez: "Do any of you truly believe that God would give people all these commands to do and not to do things and then have created them not to be able to even repsond to anything He asks them to do or not do?"

I do. God created us. Who are we to say His ways are unfair? His ideas and thoughts are so far above us, how can we understand Him? Why save ANY of us, when we all deserve hell, for sinning against a holy and just God? Knowing that we don't deserve Christ, and knowing at the same time God GAVE us to Christ, makes God's grace all the more amazing, and His glory all the more evident.

 

Let the dead bury the dead. They at least chose on their own to bury their dead so I wonder why they can't choose other things?

 

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The Law was _NEVER_ meant to be the final solution...

It was an intermediate solution until in the fullness of time God sent Jesus...

SMM

Yes, he is talking about Law vs Grace.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

John 12:32 "I will DRAW all mankind TO Me" not "I will CHANGE all mankind THEN DRAW them TO ME".

John 16 God "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judmgnet" NOT "God first CHANGES the world to be SAVED THEN convicts them".

Rev 3 "I stand at the door and KNOCK if any hears AND OPENS I WILL come in" -- NOT "I COME IN and CHANGE the person then I OPEN the door".

So when you claim God sez it your way - we see a "claim" not the actual Bible support. In fact we see the Arminian POV clearly stated!

In Christ,

Bob