KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it. The opposite of such a just, objective just system would be “arbitrary selection” of the saved vs lost. It would be to arbitrarily select some for favor instead of “So loving the World”.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many” of Matt 7. He does not let us suppose that the “many” will be lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones also do evil and yet due to “arbitrary selection and gross partiality to the FEW”, go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or even magic phrases) allowing some of the rebels in.

But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).

Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.

 

Now I don't mean to argue that "only Calvinists" oppose my views here - so with that as a caviat --

No Partiality – for Christians –

God shows no partiality between unsaved people. (Unsaved Jews vs Unsaved Gentiles)
Acts 10:34
[ Gentiles Hear Good News ] Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

God shows no partiality in determining who goes to heaven – who is justified.

Many are reading that section of Romans 2:1-11 above for the first time – with eyes open to details.

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospel.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcome.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.

 

Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few

Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.

Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.

There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the Law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8, 2Cor 3!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the Gentiles are shown to be doers of the Law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

2Cor 5:10

Albert Barnes who is no friend to the idea that the Gospel is in Romans 2 for the Gentiles – sees no option but to confess to the obvious point the works of the Law written on the tablets of the human heart – instead of merely tablets of stone – refers to the actual Law of God (right vs wrong) not made known by formal contact with the written Word of God – but via nature, reason (and also this writer would confess to the Work of the Holy Spirit convicting the “World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment” John 16)

Though Barnes pays no attention the precross teaching of Christ that the Holy Spirit ”Convicts the World of sin AND righteousness AND judgment” Yet some of the truths of scripture he is retaining in his commentary on this chapter and this is very helpful.

 

HA, soundly saved is a Ray Comfort saying.

 

Congrats to Bob for killing calvinism in so many posts!

 

Claudia,

Praise the Lord!

He does not free us from the Law so that we can then be back under the Law. He frees us from the Law so that we can walk in liberty. And by walking in liberty we are able to allow the Holy Spirit to begin to cause fruit to flourish in our lives. That fruit will incude not desiring some of those "donts" in the Law, and wanting to do some of those "do's" in the Law.

But that fruit will be cultivated and will flourish only when we live in the "liberty with which Christ has set us free", and not by continueing to live under that which is desgned to kill us.

What you are saying is that we have been freed from the Law...but not really. Its just an illusion. We are still under it, but its different now.

How? If you are under it, with its condemnation, then you are under it, with its condemnation.

God is not a con artist, or an "indian giver", as we used to say when we were kids.

If God tells us that we are free from the Law, then guess what?

WE...ARE...FREE...FROM...THE...LAW!

From Galatians...

2 things are being presented here.

1st, the law is a CURSE.

2nd, Law and Faith are contrasted, as being polar opposites in this context. Its one or the other.

Yet...

Under law.....or living by faith. Those are the 2 choices. Its not a blending of the 2. Its one or the other.

But what you guys...mostly Brother Bob judging from his posts to me...cant seem to grasp is that we are not saying that now that we are free from the Law, we can sin with impunity!

"Yeeeee Haaaaa, its reefer wine and women from now on, and then heaven when I die!!!"

The Holy Spirit will not allow that. The Holy Spirit lives inside of us now and will be leading us into the ways of living and thinking that are consistent with who we are in Christ...Gods dearly lived and 100% secure children.

For the rest of our lives we will be "putting of the old" and "putting on the new". But we do that from the perspective of security and liberty, rather than under the yoke and bondage of the Law, with its steely and rigid condemnation.

The purpose of the Law is NOT primarily to get us to do right, but to condemn us...

How much clearer does God have to make it?

After we are born of the Spirit...

"WE...ARE...NO...LONGER...UNDER...THE...TUTOR"

To now freely live a life of wanton sin and degradation?

No...

You said...

Its you guys who dont want to contiune on.

You guys are saying...

"we are free from the law, but we are still kinda under it."

"We are free from the Law, but if you sin while you die you go to hell."

"We are not under the law, but after you are born again you then live under the law."

No no no no no!

Of course for the born again person "estranged from Christ" doesnt mean you are lost again. You have just left the realm of the Spirit, and the growth that is available in that realm.

Grace and peace,

Mike

[ May 10, 2006, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: D28guy ]

 

Brother Bob,

Hmmm. So I guess you deny the power of the Holy Spirit to change someones life. You need to keep them under law and the threat of condmenation to keep them on the "straight and narrow".

I'll take the Holy Spirit any day.

Good, because I wouldnt either. The utter silliness of what you are presenting is diametrically opposite of what I am saying.

I would think you would be too embarrased to post what you are posting.

Congratulations Bob. You're argument has sunk to an even sillier level.

Using two lost people getting struck by lightning while committing fornication during a thunderstorm to prove whatever point it is you are trying to make.

Hopefully my post above this one to Claudia will serve as some small amount of enlightenment to help you to understand what I am really saying.

I sure hope so.

Mike

 

"12": For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. (have to quit doing evil, according to this Scripture alone He would not hear him, now will you take the Scripture or your sayings?)

"13": And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

"14": But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

"15": But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

"16": Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

1 Peter, chapter 3
"17": For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

"18": For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Once again you feel it necessary to attack me but that is a sign of weakness. You are the one posting nonsense, not me. A man can be saved while in the very act of adultery? Why would someone go so far to make such a statement to prove their point when it really makes their point that much more ridiculous, I doubt if you really believe that, you just don't want to be proven wrong so you will go to any extremes . There is a Scripture perhaps you haven't read it, "cease to do evil and learn to do good". I used adultery but it could mean murder, stealing, killing can you continue on with your murder while being saved. That sir, is a ridiculous statement.

Also, in your previous post to Claudia, you keep referring to the "saved" which I/we are talking about the "unsaved" seeking Salvation. You should at least read enough to know "who" we are talking about before attacking.

Lets try and keep it civil, ok

BBob

[ May 10, 2006, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

Ed Sutton;
I can't believe you would use those under the Law Covenant to try and justify being saved today. They had concubines (we certainly can not, they offered beast of the field for their sins, we certainly can not, they had more than one wife, we certainly can not.)

Also, You use the one committing adultery with his father's wife as being saved.

1 Corinthians, chapter 5
1": It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Corinthians, chapter 5
"12": For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

"13": But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person
(No Salvation here!!!)

Come on Ed, its not like you to use such a statement, is there some hidden reason to do so?

 

Well IF a man died while commiting adultery, surely it was God's will. It would be up to God what happened to him. A person might be saved who commites adultery even with his father's wife (ew), because the Holy Spirit might convict his heart into repentence. I'm not at all saying that because of that it's ok to commit adultery. There's many instances of Paul telling of people that have been handed over to Satan (excommunicated)in hopes that being away from the safety of the church they would repent. I'm saying that it's not up to us to make that descision, we'd better just leave it to God, because His thoughts and ideas are far, far, beyond us.

 

You will know them by the fruit they bear, and the Lord alone knows who are truly His.

 

Right, so if a person is commiting adultery with his father's wife, would you wonder if he's saved? I would. But it's not my business to say so one way or another. All we can do is rebuke them and excommunicate and hope that God sees fit to give them a repentant heart. What else don't you agree with?

 

Claudia sez "How in the world can Christians have the idea that once you are "saved" whether or not you keep the law doesnt have anything whatever to do with your salvation?"

I'm following the law right now by not lying or stealing or murdering, etc... Keeping the law in not an option if your indwelt with the Holy Spirit, for it's He that leads you to truth. If I sin and confess and repent then God is faithful to forgive and cleanse me from unrightousness. It's nothing that I do, it's all God. When I slip and sin, boy do I hate it! How many times have I told God how I hate my sinful flesh?! Plenty.

Claudia also sez " actually, now that I think about it, that kinda answers to Bob's question about if someone is in the act of adultery and dies can he go to heaven?


The answer would have to be NO...

Because there is no repentence. "

Right again, God didn't see fit to grant repentence to our imaginary adulterer, it appears he commited a sin unto death. What I'm saying is that if God killed someone off in the middle of an act of adultery then it's good because it is God's will for it to happen. If God chose to let him live and later be convicted of his sin and repent, then it's good because it's God's will. I speak on issues like this because I can go back and think of maybe a dozen or two times in my life when I SHOULD HAVE DIED, but God, in His infinate mercy and grace and love, allowed me to live and be changed and have faith where there was none before. I don't know if I'm off topic now or what...

 

Surely you don't believe a person committing adultery is God's will. Did you read what I posted about the man committing adultery with his father's wife.

"13": But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person
(No Salvation here!!!)

Couldn't be any plainer than that could it?

 

It's God's will that some be saved and some be damned. Otherwise EVERYONE would go to heaven. I'm not trying to be an elitist or think that I'm special or anything. I just believe in the complete sovereignty of God. There's a verse somewhere that says something like, "Everything is created to the glory of God, even the wicked for the day of destruction." If the man commits adultery and then is granted repentance then God is glorified. If the man does not repent then he is damned, then God is glorified in His righteous judgement. Nothin happens that is not the will of God.

 

BrotherBob,

I know that.

Thats why I posted THIS, to you, 2 pages ago...

Mike