KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

[Brother Bob]

Oh, that is good to come back and accuse me of getting up in arms.

I am not up in the arms, just telling you what I believe about the Law.
"Shall we make void the Law through faith, God forbid for I would of not know sin except the Law said, thou shalt not commit adultery etc. So we see that the breaking of the Law is sin and Paul goes on to say "yea, we establish the Law" establish means to put it somewhere and that is according to Scripture the sinner and ungodly, not to do away with it.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Hey folks...

Why don't you start a passage specific thread?

Say on Romans 7?

It is obvious that all of us, myself included, have been so intent on making our stands that in some case we have not seen what the other person has written...

In some cases, as in your last exchange, we all may be reading into each anothers posts something that is not there...

I am not sure I am able to step back at this time.

So, I am going to leave this thread...

Which I really hate to do...

But, as Gekko has asked me to back off...

And, as even he is showing signs of wear.

And, I know I am far more incendiary than he.

Probably best...

Note, please, this is not a concession.

But, a preferring one another in Love...

 

[Brother Bob]

Blessings SMM

Romans 7 says it perfect.

 

[gekko]

i think a specific thread is a great idea.


(but i dont think i asked SMM to back off from the thread... just from getting riled up... )

God bless

 

[Claudia_T]

Hey Everybody,

How about if we say a prayer?

Dear Father,

Please help all of us to realize that each one of us are sincere in our beliefs and that we all want to help each other. We each dont want the others to be deceived and thats why we try so strongly to convince everyone else we think that they are wrong. Help us all to know that about one another.

Also Father, please help all to not be so sensitive to everything.

Help us now to love one another and to see where we might be speaking in an offensive manner to someone else but not realizing it.

Show us how to treat one another as we wish to be treated.

Help us all to just make sure we are doing right towards others, and not to focus upon how we think someone else is offending us.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

well that was kind of a clumsy prayer but I hope God will answer it.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

OK I started the Romans 7 Thread and asked the first Question...

After we hash the first verse for a while I guess we'll figuire out who to let ask the next question?

Mike Sr.

 

[D28guy]

BrotherBob,

"D28; if you believe that a man while committing adultery can repent at the same time without stopping adultery and repenting of it then we will just have to agree to disagree"

What is all of this "committing adultery and repenting at the same time" buisiness???

You said that the hypothetical man was a born again person who died in the act of committing adultery. That means that obviously he was not repenting, but rather commiting that sin.

But you said he was a born again person. Well, where do born again people go when they die, Bob?

HEAVEN!

Our rightstanding befroe God is not based upon our being sure to have all sins repented of at the time we die. If that were the case then justification would be by works.

We are justified in Gods eyes by embracing Christ through faith alone. At that moment Christs perfect sinless rightiousness is imputed...or credited...to us.

That is why we are secure and can have confidence regarding our eternal destination...

3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

3:21
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

3:22
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all F15 who believe. For there is no difference;

3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

3:26
to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

If you believe you are justified by making sure to have no sin in your life when you die, then you have no hope because you will dies with pride and self sufficiency in your heart, as you lay there thinking you are rightious in Gods eyes because you have *supposedly* repented of all sin, and are now good enough to merit heaven.

Now...having said that, I believe you will die and go straight to heaven, because you are in Christ...which has nothing to do with your behavior...and His sinlessness has been imputed to you, completly irrespective of how well or un-well you are behaving.

That is what the gospel is all about...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast"

Regarding our behavior AFTER being born agin, the Holy Spirit is a very active influence in our lives. The Holy Spirit leads and guides us into the type of lifestyle that God is pleased with, rather than the sinful lifestyles that the devil promotes.

But can we grieve the Holy Spirit? The scriptures clearly teach that we can. Do we lose our salvation? Absolutly not...the scriptures are clear about that.

But God will deal with us as a father deals with his earthly children. He will discipline us and do what is necesarry to bring us to our senses.

The hypothetical man you brought up might die as he is commiting adultery because God has given Him chance after chance to leave that road and God is finally calling him home prematurely.

But its unthinkable...unimaginable...that a born again child of God, whom Christ has died for and the Holy Spirit has "sealed for the day of redemption", would be lost because he dies commiting a sin.

Its a slap to Christs face to say that what He did to save us isnt sufficient, we have to be "good" enough to get in.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"In my opinion, many Christians on this bulletin board (and other places too of course) have this opinion that we are "free" from the law. As if it kept them in some sort of bondage or something that they want to be free from..."

You mean like this?...(from Galatians)

"5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,* and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5:5
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

Or this?...(from Romans)

"7:1
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

7:2
For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

7:3
So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bible-boy:
So physical life and death (that is what the Ezekiel 18 passage is talking about) somehow equates to salvation and/or loss thereof?

Bible Boy,


Here is the very end of that passage from Ezekiel 18:
30: Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31: Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32: For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


Why would you think it isnt referring to your salvation?

Everybody dies the natural death. </font>[/QUOTE]Because Brother Bob asked the question:

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
None of you have giving an answer if you can be saved while in the act of adultery?

To which you replied:

Originally posted by ClaudiaT:
Bob,

I believe this same principle applies today...if we decide to turn away from God with no repentence, then this is what happens:

Ezekiel 18:
24: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25: Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

The question was can someone be saved while they are in the sin of adultery and you responded with the quote of Ezk. 18. What else was I supposed to think you were saying the passage meant?

Oooopps... I misunderstood the question that you were asking of me. The reason I say that the Ezk. 18 passage is dealing with physical life and death is because of the conext of the passage, the context of the chapter, and the context of the Book. It is prophetic language addressing the sinfulness of the nation of Israel (already in exile) and the nation of Judah (not yet in exile) and calling for them to repent. If they fail to repent God is saying that He is going to pass judgment on them and that they will be killed. Biblical history tells us that the nation of Israel indeed did not repent (nor did the nation of Judah), God judged them, and they were destroyed and exiled to Assyria and Babylon. What is the link in that prophetic passage to the question that Brother Bob asked?

[ May 09, 2006, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"well that was kind of a clumsy prayer but I hope God will answer it."

No. It was not a clumsy prayer. It was a wonderful prayer.

God bless you,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

Hi Mike,

Since you brought up Romans 7, Im posting this again, the same thing that I did over on the new Romans 7 thread:

you are married to yourself. You are married to your sinful self. You have to die to get out from under the law of sin and death...meaning that we sin and then are under condemnation, over and over the same round of sin and condemnation...

then after you consent to die, you have to get married to Christ instead. This is the only way out of the whole thing because as long as you live, (your sinful self you are married to) you arent allowed to marry someone else... so you have to die.

your old self dies. But you are still under the same law when married to Christ.

A woman having a husband is bound to her husband so long as he is living. She is bound by the law. It is against the law for her to have two husbands at the same time; but if the first husband is dead, the same law will allow her to marry another man.

But now we serve in newness of spirit, we no longer feel it a drugery to "try" to keep from sinning. We now love to do what God says, we want to please our "husband". We bring forth fruit now instead of this awful round of sin, death, sin, death... because we couldnt do the law before now.

We are born again and the old man dies. We now walk in newness of life, loving to do what was once a terrible drugery that we couldnt accomplish before now.

yes it is supposed to be US that dies in this entire process, and not the Law. And you dont die to self to be married to Christ ---only to go back to your old sinful ways again...

Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom:6:7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom:6:8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom:6:9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Rom:6:11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

And you could go to the Romans 7 thread to and go read what BobRyan said about it too, I think that he did a really good job of explaining it.

Mike, you point out Romans 5 verse 4

Romans 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

But I dont believe in trying to be justified by the law at all, I think we misunderstand each other on that.

Actually we probably misunderstand each other on alot of things since we dont know each other that well anyway.

Its hard sometimes to try to communicate using this kind of a medium.

Claudia

 

[gekko]

oh but D28guy... we are justified by works.

have you not read the book of James? let me point it out for you:

James 2:24 (starts earlier but i'll start here): "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Tahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

 

[Claudia_T]

Rom:2:13: For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[D28guy]

gekko,

"oh but D28guy... we are justified by works.

have you not read the book of James? let me point it out for you:

James 2:24 (starts earlier but i'll start here): "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Tahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

(Sigh...)

That old worn out mis-understanding of James again. The book of James is a wonderful book and it fits with justification through faith alone like a hand in a glove.

One who is justified is one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will have an impact on the believers lifestyle.

In other words, it is inevitable for their to be fruit in the christians life.

If there is no fruit...or "works"...that ones profession of Christ is mere lip service, and that one isnt really saved at all.

But that fruit...or "works"...is merely an authentication of the fact that the person is truly born again, but the fruit/works play absolutly no role in attaining justifiection.

Now do you see?

Grace and peace,

Mike

[ May 09, 2006, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: D28guy ]

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"Rom:2:13: For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

That passage of scripture comes during the part of Romans where Paul if proving that all are condemned and need Gods mercy and grace to be saved, and NONE can be justified through the law.(or "being good enough". He contiunes making that point right up until Romans 3:20.

Beginning with 3:21, when Paul says "But now..." he begins share how people CAN in fact be justified...through faith alone.

"But now the rightiousness of God is revealed, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, even the rightiousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe...."

"...to demonstrate at the present time His rightiousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus..."

"...Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

See?

God bless,

Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

D28guy;
I didn't say a born again was the one committing adultery. I said a person in the world who is in the very act of adultery and ask God to save him at the same time will God hear him. I don't believe a born again Christian can committ such an act. I have a whole bunch of answers but all are using a Christian committing adultery but I didn't say a Christian at all. I said a worldly person who wanted to be saved.

What is all of this "committing adultery and repenting at the same time" buisiness???

You said that the hypothetical man was a born again person who died in the act of committing adultery. That means that obviously he was not repenting, but rather commiting that sin.

I said no such thing that a born again person who died while committing adultery.

Once again, I said a worldly person who was in the very act of adultery and asked to be saved at same time would God hear him?

 

[Claudia_T]

Mike,
Okay Im reading through Romans chapter 2 now..

so far what I see is this:


Romans 2:

23: Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24: For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


Now how could God say they have broken the law and thus dishonored God among the gentiles?


when I think of this in Deuteronomy...

Deut:4:
5: Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6: Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

I think to myself, ok,God WANTED THEM to reflect His character among the nations, right? by keeping His Law.

so it makes no sense at all to me taht in Romans 2:23,24 it means somehow that they couldnt keep it or shouldnt keep it.

It HAS TO mean God is telling them to STOP boasting in the Law and then turning around and not keeping the law.


But I am going to read up some more on that and probably write more to you..

Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

D28guy;
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,* and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5:5
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Law of Circumsion


Or this?...(from Romans)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"7:1
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

7:2
For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

7:3
So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Law Covenant which includes Sacrificial which Christ fulfilled, Law of Circumcision which God took out of the flesh and put in the heart and Law of the Ten Commandments, which the preists carried across Jordan into the promised land and Jesus came preaching.