KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

[SpiritualMadMan]

You really can't see the forrest for the trees can you?

You can't be in either group...

Because without Grace you have no way back after breaking even the least of the commandments...

Which you have already admitted doing...

If because I advocate Grace as superceeding the Law makes me a person who is advocating that people break the commandments...

Then what are you, who refuses Grace preferring the Law, yet, you are already guilty of a captial offense by your own admission...

You really can't have it both ways...

You have broken the Law and the soul that sins *MUST* die... Period... No choices no mitigation...

You, Claudia have admitted to not being perfect...

In failing to keep the least point in the Law you have become guilty of all and as such are worthy of death...

So, when will you report for stoning?

Mike Sr.

 

[Brother Bob]

We are not talking about Salvation here. Salvation is of the Lord. We are talking if a man has to quit doing wrong, can he be in the act of adultery and be saved without first quitting. You still haven't answered it.

I can't put it too plain without getting thrown off here, but can he be with a woman not his wife, committing adultery with her and be saved at the same time. answer please?

I hope no one here thinks I am saying or have ever said the Law will give eternal life for if it would there would of been no need for Jesus to die, but I believe in "cleansing your hands you sinner", and to do that you must stop lending your members to commit such acts.

 

[Eric B]

When I say people have to stop their sinning, well first of all the Bible DOES DOES DOES SAY THIS:


1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And so dont we have to give these verses their appropriate due? We cannot just dismiss them, right?

The Bible plain says that if we do not do righteousness then we are NOT of God... and that if we sin, we are children of the devil, right??

I didnt just dream that up because I am some kind of a legalist, right?

Okay now here is the way I view that entire subject... maybe Im wrong but it is what I gather from my Bible studies...

I believe God is looking for our love and our loyalty. Those two things... Thou shalt love thy God with all thy heart.

He wants us to cease from our rebellion. And I already said I know we will fall and fail.

I believe when God sees it is in the heart to obey and we put forth efforts (yes I actually said we have to have some effort, thus "strive" to enter the narrow way) ...then God will bless us and accept us.

I do NOT believe that we can just continue on in our sins as we did before in our former life and expect salvation.

That is what I mean by "stopping sinning".

Thats exactly why the Bible says this:

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

God tells us, little children DO NOT SIN... then he includes, but if we DO sin, we have an Advocate, Jesus

and thats EXACTLY what I am saying also.

Claudia

So basically, you redefine "stop sinning" as mere "effort" to try stopping. This still would beg the question of where the line is betwee saved and lost. I know we're not supposed to be looking for that line to come as close as possible and still 'make it', but still, the question looms because definite statements are being made as to our effort determining salvation.
(And then, of course, if we think we are putting forth enough effort, then we can look down on someone else, who does not seem to be. Or especially those missing a supposed "forgotten commandment" that only we are aware of).

Then you went on in your answer to me on the virgins about people doing works to earn merits, impress others, and other "selfish" reasons, but what you have just said here about "effort" leads to just that, even if you say you're doing it to please God.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Bob,

Even if I were a pastor I would not answer this hypothetical question...

As I said before it doesn't matter what I think...

What matters is what the Lord KNOWS about the individuals involved...

If forced to answer I would say that my human understanding would indicate that a Christian would not do such a thing...

Therefore, he couldn't really be saved and be committing such a sin...

However, at the same time how much do we allow for a besetting sin that is not yet under Christ's Control...

Or, any mitigation caused by seduction...

Or, what if he is led to believe that if he doesn't do this his children will be killed?

Under the Law they'd both be summarily stoned...

Under Grace there remains hope in spite of the physical transgression of the Law...

I will ask this question...

At which point is a Rose Perfect?

When it's a bud...

When it's a full bloom...

When it's petals are falling off...

Yet, at each stage of it's life it is a perfect Rose. Even though in our minds eye the only perfect Rose is a full bloom...

Yes, I agree that it is in the nature of a New Creation to cease willful sinning...

But, if you've ever bought a home where a hedge has been left to go its own way...

You know you can trim too much off at one time and kill the whole hedge...

That's why legalists scare me because they generally fail to allow for the Holy Spirit to lead a person through the Metamorphosis at a pace where they can survive and be strong...

If, when you were a child, you tried to open a cocoon yourself you were disappointed and ended up killing the creature transforming within...

Though I am not against giving a little judicious and gentle pressure to get on with it!

Mike Sr.

 

[Claudia_T]

Eric,

Is John telling you to stop sinning here?

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not . And if any man sin , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

Is John ALSO telling you that if you sin you have an advocate?

Well then if you anwered YES to both questions, Im not saying anything different than what John said.

Is John contradicting himself? Is John telling you not to sin and then saying, well I really dont mean that?

I guess if you answer YES to those two questions, well allright then, Im in good company with John.
Claudia

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

But, is Salvation contingent upon the "Stop Sinning"...

That is do you "Stop Sinning" to be saved?

Or, do you "Stop Sinning" because you *are* saved?

Because you are a New Creation in Christ Jesus?

Until this issue is laid to rest we can not even begin to discuss the theoretical possibility, or, the lack thereof, of one being able to become unsaved after becoming saved....

Mike Sr.

 

[D28guy]

Brother Bob,

"I can't put it too plain without getting thrown off here, but can he be with a woman not his wife, committing adultery with her and be saved at the same time. answer please?"

Of course he can. Would God be pleased that the man is ignoring His admonition to stop behaving as a lost man would? Of course. Is God grieved? Of course. Has God been chastising Him? Of course, as an earthly father corrects and disciplines a son he loves, so it is with our heavenly Father.

But will he still go to heaven? OF COURSE he would.

You say adultery while he dies, but let me ask you this. What if someone is dying, they are born again and have been for a long time, but just as they pass into eternity they experience worry.

Do they still go to heaven? Yes or no?

The same God that says for us to not commit adultery tells us plainly not to worry.

Did Christ not teach us to never worry, for God will take care of us like He takes care of the birds in the air? In Matthew 6:25-34 God tells us not to worry about 4 or 5 times, yet that person chooses to worry as they pass.

Do THEY go to heaven? Yes or no?

We are not born again and saved by making sure we are sinless when we die. We are born again through faith is Christ and by the "sealing" of the Holy Spirit who secures us for heaven.

The publican in the Temple simply prayed "God be merciful to me, a sinner"...and Christ said he was justified in Gods eyes.

Should we stop sinning? Yes we should be about that for the rest of our lives. But we do not do that so as to make sure that we are good enough at the moment of our death, but rahther because God has bought us and secured us, and He wants us to be effective intruments of His love to those all around us.

"Fear not, little flock. It is the Fathers good pleasure to give you the Kingdom"

God bless,

Mike

Claudia, I am short on time but hopfully this post will answer the post I wanted to answer when I had to go to bed last night.

Peace,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"Mike,

You seem awfully antagonistic. I dont know why this topic seems to make you so uncomfortable.

Claudia"

Surely you dont mean me??? I am as peaceful with this topic as I can possibly be, and am not posting with even the slightest bit of "antagonisism".

If so you are badly misreasing my posts. I guess I should put more smilies

in them!

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

No I didnt men you, Mike.

I should call you Mikey, that way I can differenciate (dont know if I spelled that right) between you.

Claudia

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

She could mean Mike Sr.?

I am being intentionally antagonistic to try to point out the problems (indeed hazards) with espousing the Written Law as a requirement on
Christians...

Mike Sr

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"I should call you Mikey,"

Ahhh....I'd rather you didnt!

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
She could mean Mike Sr.?

I am being intentionally antagonistic to try to point out the problems (indeed hazards) with espousing the Written Law as a requirement on
Christians...

Mike Sr

yes. You're the grouch in question

 

[Claudia_T]

..but I was thinking though... maybe since we are supposed to be Christians we should stop being mean to one another and start being nice...


Okay,... you go first

 

[Brother Bob]

Well SMM;
You almost was persuaded but not completely. I liked you answer much better than D28guy, but still just couldn't say it could you. D28; if you believe that a man while committing adultery can repent at the same time without stopping adultery and repenting of it then we will just have to agree to disagree for Jesus did cast the evil spirits out of the man before he was healed. I am amazed at the beliefs I see on here, or is it just confusion, I don't know. If you walked upon a couple in the act and they said "hey preacher pray with us". I would say when you get in a position I can pray for you I will, tell you what I will pray that God will direct your minds to stop these sinful acts.

Now God don't threaten you to get you to repent. He loves you to get you to repent. You may get fear that something bad is going to happen to you. You know man can do some things, he eats, sleeps, uses bathroom, worries, happy, sad, crys, gets sorrowful=bang thats it, Godly sorrow.

 

[Claudia_T]

Brother Bob,

I have been pretty amazed at some of he beliefs I see on here too.

I cant understand how people can think there is no law anymore.

Also the idea of eternal security really bothers me too.


Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

SMM;
You talk as if we doing something to Christians. The Law is for the sinner and ungodly not for the Christians for they are in our heart and our minds. We just simply don't do those things anymore. We are saying Christians are free from the Law through the body of Christ for they don't do those things anymore and righteous of the law is fulfilled in us. What we are saying is what Paul said, the Law is to the sinner and ungodly that is why they are in sin.
The only way to be free from something is to quit, such as taking drugs, if you quit taking drugs then you finally are free from drugs. The same is true with the law if you receive Christ then you are free from the Law because you just don't do those things anymore. amen,

 

[Claudia_T]

In my opinion, many Christians on this bulletin board (and other places too of course) have this opinion that we are "free" from the law. As if it kept them in some sort of bondage or something that they want to be free from...

But I really dont see how they could reconcile that idea with this verse:

2Pt:2:19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.


Now the rest of it:


18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

In all reality, this is just what they are advocating!

A going back right into the sin we were supposed to have ESCAPED FROM!!

and it just seems to me that they have to take some pretty strange routes around alot of scripture verses to try to justify this kind of thinking!


Claudia

 

[gekko]

yes. free from the law of sin and death - and now we are part of the law of liberty.

does that sound right? please tell me if im taking that out of context...

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

But, the context I keep reading from Claudia continues to imply that the Law is applied to Christians...

That is, that the Law is legally binding on Believers.

And, no one has confirmed what I have been saying all along,

You are either Under Grace or Under Law

If you are not Born-Again then you are under Law and Dead already in trespasses and sins...

If you *are* Born-Again then you are a New Creation in Christ...

If we are Buried with Christ in baptism, a picture of an Inward Spiritual Work, then as dead men the Law has no hold over us.

And, we are freed from both the Law and it's Curse...

Claudia's quotes and statements lead me to believe that she believes that as Believers we are bound to and by the law to keep it...

Your quotes I am not so sure about because of the coloration occuring from Claudia...

We can talk about a lot more hyptoheticals after we settle the Law vs Grace issues...

About that I am quite inflexible...

Because until that is nailed shut any ground I might give could be construed as supporting Law as Binding on believers...

As something we *do* to merit or obtain, in our own strength, God's favor towards Salvation..

In this I am intractible...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Whenever we talk of the Circumcism and Uncircumcism we are talking about Law vs Grace...

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

In Hebrews it doesn't say that without Law it's impossible to please Him... It says without Faith...

Mike Sr.

 

[Brother Bob]

And, we are freed from both the Law and it's Curse...

yes. free from the law of sin and death - and now we are part of the law of liberty.

Let me put it another way which is in accordance with the above Scriptures.
(if the State posts that "drunk drivers go to jail then we are free from that law because we don't drink. The Law of The Commandments, we are free from them if we been born again because we don't do those things anymore. Now the drinking law, if we "were" to drink then we would become subject to that law of the state. The Law of the Commandments, if we were to commit adultery then we would become subject to the Commandments. The difference is if we have Christ then the laws are within us and we "can't" do those things anymore for a Christians we put off the old man and put on the new. Am I making any sense that you might understand. Apostle Paul put it perfect. in: Timothy, chapter 1
"7": Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. ) Please read this Scripture and study if real close to see what it means. I used to believe as others and think the Commandments were no good any longer but as I read the Bible I kept coming across these Scriptures that just didn't fit, so I set out to really learn the Law through reading, studing and praying. I think I have a pretty good understanding of it now but it is hard to convey to others but I try.