Featured Spiritual Life

You are dancing around terms, David, and offering a strawman. No one suggested men are not dead in their sins. But it is a fallacy to assume this means Adam was spiritually alive and then died spiritually when he sinned.

How was Adam spiritually alive?

Was it when he was created or when God put him in the Garden?

Why was Adam's "spiritual life" so ineffective?

What are the fruits you see of spiritual life in Adam?

Can you post even one verse that states Adam was created a spiritual being (spiritual life) because I can (and have) provided a verse to the contrary (that Adam was created a natural man, not a spiritual man)?

Being born in sin is not a sin itself. It is being born "under the law of sin and death".

You know what I believe. I do not believe this Life has changed pre-fall to post-fall because I believe Christ is this Life and we are made alive when God puts His Spirit in us. I do not believe the Fall changed God in any way. Jesus did not become life when Adam sinned. He is eternally the Life through Whom all things were made and through whom everything exists. Apart from Christ there is no life.

But you have not explained what you believe spiritual life is.

Please define this life. How can Christ be the Life post-fall but not pre-fall? Are you suggesting John 1 applies only to Jesus after the fall?

 

Where we stand so far:

I believe we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in us (Romans 8:9). If Christ is in us, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness (Romans 8:10). I also believe that if the Spirit of God dwells in us, God will give life to our bodies through His Spirit who dwells in us (Romans 8:11). I believe Scripture testifies that it is the Spirit who gives life, that the gospel (specifically, Christ) are spirit and are life (John 6), that we are of the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us (Romans 8). I believe that the spiritual is not first, but the natural and then the spiritual (1 Corinthians 15), that the Lord is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3) that this is Christ in us (Romans 8), that the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him (1 Corinthians 6), that God has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Timothy 1:14; Isaiah 63; Ezekiel 36; 1 Corinthians 6), that in Christ is life, and this life is the Light of men (John 1:4), that whoever has the Son has the Life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life (1 John 5:12), that we have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable (1 Peter 1:23); that this perishable must put on the imperishable and this mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53).

How I understand David's position:

@davidtaylorjr has presented (correct me if I misstate your position) that “spiritual life” is not in the Bible (is not a term used in the Bible). He agrees that Christ is the life, but believes this is not pre-Fall spiritual life. What is missing is a passage saying that there is another kind of spiritual life and that this applies pre-fall. It does not have to say “spiritual life”, but it does need to say that Adam had the Spirit of God alive in him because this is how Scripture presents life “of the spirit” as opposed to “of the flesh”.

How I understand Y1's position:

@Yeshua1 has presented (correct me if I mistake your posts) that Adam had a pre-fall spiritual life of one kind, the OT saints of another, and the NT saints a spiritual life “in Christ”.

My question is whether or not you believe that Adam was created with whatever “spiritual life” you think he had (the natural not coming before the spiritual), if Adam had this “spiritual life” before he was placed in fellowship with God in the Garden, and how these three types of “spiritual life” differ from one another (along with passages).


How I understand Martin's position:

@Martin Marprelate has comments about the topic of the thread - spiritual life - (please feel free to correct me if I mistake your activity on this thread) BUT does not understand or is unable to actually define spiritual life or provide Scripture describing this life.

My caution to Martin is to take the time to study Scripture and develop definitions for these terms before going forward with doctrine. Until you are able to define spiritual life there is nothing that you can contribute to its discussion. I understand why some do not want to define terms (to be nailed down to a belief). If we do not define terms then we have the room to shift between meanings and flex against anything that comes (we ride a fence). But at the same time our doctrines are meaningless (many can appear to agree with our doctrines while actually disagreeing). We are called to give an explanation of our faith - this includes explaining our faith by defining the terms we would use. You can't build doctrine on sand, you need a firm foundation.

 

You have not, I agree. But if I take your position without changing my view that being spiritually alive means God's Spirit in us then I would be affirming exactly that.

This is why I an asking for definitions. Very often definitions firm the basis of disagreements further down the road.

I not trying to change your view or really argue against it. I am asking how you define spiritual life. It seems we agree this life is Christ at some point. I believe always, you post fall. This leaves another type of life (pre fall) to be defined.

 

It does go back to definitions.

I believe Christ is this Life, it is God putting His Spirit in us. The result is communion with God.

If I understand you correctly, you see this communion with God itself as this life.

While we agree that Scripture presents Christ as the Life, that we are "of the Spirit" only if the Spirit of God dewkks in us, I disagree that this Life itsekf is its result.

Do you know of a passage that defines life as anything except God dwelling in us? If so, it may help to explore those.

 

You are making an assumption.

We do not know that sin caused "spiritual death" per Scripture. This goes back to definitions (sin is a barrier to fellowship with God, so by your definition Adam "spiritually died", but by my definition that life is the Spirit of God in us this is not the case). We do know that sin introduced death (I believe physical death) I to the life of man. But you are assuming what is not actually in the Bible.

You are assuming Adam was not spiritually dead prior to sin (in a state of "missing the mark" in terms of God's righteousness). But Scripture seems to suggest the opposite (that Adam was created flesh/ natural and not spiritual (with the Spirit bring forth that which is spiritual/ "of the Spirit"). We are not talking biology but our state (a spiritual state) in relation to God. Being "spiritually dead" does not mean one had to at one time been "spiritually alive". We are talking an "absence of life". A rock does not have life (it is a "dead" thing in this context). This does not mean the rock had to have been alive at one time and then died. It was never made alive.

We also have to be careful not to make logical errors in our arguments. I mentioned before that the "covenant" with Adam is a logical fallacy (it affirms the inverse of God's command to Adam, which is by definition a formal logical fallacy). Your argument here seems to be approaching that status (to be dead means one must have been alive).

But as you point out, Scripture does not use the words "spiritual death" "died spiritually" and even exactly the words "spiritual life" (although Scripture is very close to the latter in that it speaks of the Spirit alive in us, Christ in us, as being life). The terms then are "natural/ flesh" and "of the Spirit".

What you seem to be suggesting (using biblical terms) is that Adam was created "of the Spirit" rather than "natural/ flesh" and this "Spirit" died in Adam (or Adam died to the Spirit) and became natural/ flesh. The problem is when we use the biblical words to support your position they quickly become unbiblical doctrines. There are no passages that even suggest that Adam's nature changed except for Adam's eyes being opened to, like God, know good and evil. That's all Scripture tells us. So I find it very interesting that you seem to argue your position as if it is factual per Scripture when in truth it is at a greater distance from the actual text of Scripture than mine.

 

Absolutely. I knew from the start that we would not agree (I suspect you did as well).

I believe my position is in Scripture.

You are wrong but close in your recollection of my view if the doctrine of the Trinity. I believe Scripture actually states that the Father and Son are One and are God. The Spirit is directly stated to be God's Spirit. (I believe Scripture states the Trinity).

What I believe about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is directly in Scripture in its basic form (an affirmation of the Godhead). We have a more detailed doctrine which involves philosophical issues such as "natures" and "persons" and I agree with this as well. But the former (Scripture) is more important than the latter.

I believe we can argue our points and agree to disagree but ultimately hold one another accountable to Scripture itself (what is actually written). My hesitation is to build on what is not actually in Scripture (like Adam dying spiritually).

 

Is this how you are defining "spiritual life"?

If so, while @davidtaylorjr disagrees at least in terms of pre-fall, I absolutely agree.

What would be your reply to those who believe that "spiritual life" prior to Christ's work is something other than Christ in them (or God's Spirit in them)?

Are you able to articulate a response or is this beyond your theology?

 

@Martin Marprelate ,

Please forgive me if my response seemed confrontational. I am trying to follow your argument on the forum but find it difficult as it seems you need to first define your terms.