Spiritual Life

[JonC]

We are dead and sin John. Yes, that is a fact. Adam was not dead in sin prior to fall because he had not sinned. He was not born in sin like we are. So in the day that he sinned, on that very day, that very moment, he became spiritually dead in his sin. Yes, that is absolutely a fact found in Scripture.

You are dancing around terms, David, and offering a strawman. No one suggested men are not dead in their sins. But it is a fallacy to assume this means Adam was spiritually alive and then died spiritually when he sinned.

How was Adam spiritually alive?

Was it when he was created or when God put him in the Garden?

Why was Adam's "spiritual life" so ineffective?

What are the fruits you see of spiritual life in Adam?

Can you post even one verse that states Adam was created a spiritual being (spiritual life) because I can (and have) provided a verse to the contrary (that Adam was created a natural man, not a spiritual man)?

Being born in sin is not a sin itself. It is being born "under the law of sin and death".

Again. Difference between pre-post fall.

You know what I believe. I do not believe this Life has changed pre-fall to post-fall because I believe Christ is this Life and we are made alive when God puts His Spirit in us. I do not believe the Fall changed God in any way. Jesus did not become life when Adam sinned. He is eternally the Life through Whom all things were made and through whom everything exists. Apart from Christ there is no life.

But you have not explained what you believe spiritual life is.

Please define this life. How can Christ be the Life post-fall but not pre-fall? Are you suggesting John 1 applies only to Jesus after the fall?

 

[JonC]

Where we stand so far:

I believe we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in us (Romans 8:9). If Christ is in us, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness (Romans 8:10). I also believe that if the Spirit of God dwells in us, God will give life to our bodies through His Spirit who dwells in us (Romans 8:11). I believe Scripture testifies that it is the Spirit who gives life, that the gospel (specifically, Christ) are spirit and are life (John 6), that we are of the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us (Romans 8). I believe that the spiritual is not first, but the natural and then the spiritual (1 Corinthians 15), that the Lord is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3) that this is Christ in us (Romans 8), that the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him (1 Corinthians 6), that God has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Timothy 1:14; Isaiah 63; Ezekiel 36; 1 Corinthians 6), that in Christ is life, and this life is the Light of men (John 1:4), that whoever has the Son has the Life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life (1 John 5:12), that we have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable (1 Peter 1:23); that this perishable must put on the imperishable and this mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53).

How I understand David's position:

@davidtaylorjr has presented (correct me if I misstate your position) that “spiritual life” is not in the Bible (is not a term used in the Bible). He agrees that Christ is the life, but believes this is not pre-Fall spiritual life. What is missing is a passage saying that there is another kind of spiritual life and that this applies pre-fall. It does not have to say “spiritual life”, but it does need to say that Adam had the Spirit of God alive in him because this is how Scripture presents life “of the spirit” as opposed to “of the flesh”.

How I understand Y1's position:

@Yeshua1 has presented (correct me if I mistake your posts) that Adam had a pre-fall spiritual life of one kind, the OT saints of another, and the NT saints a spiritual life “in Christ”.

My question is whether or not you believe that Adam was created with whatever “spiritual life” you think he had (the natural not coming before the spiritual), if Adam had this “spiritual life” before he was placed in fellowship with God in the Garden, and how these three types of “spiritual life” differ from one another (along with passages).


How I understand Martin's position:

@Martin Marprelate has comments about the topic of the thread - spiritual life - (please feel free to correct me if I mistake your activity on this thread) BUT does not understand or is unable to actually define spiritual life or provide Scripture describing this life.

My caution to Martin is to take the time to study Scripture and develop definitions for these terms before going forward with doctrine. Until you are able to define spiritual life there is nothing that you can contribute to its discussion. I understand why some do not want to define terms (to be nailed down to a belief). If we do not define terms then we have the room to shift between meanings and flex against anything that comes (we ride a fence). But at the same time our doctrines are meaningless (many can appear to agree with our doctrines while actually disagreeing). We are called to give an explanation of our faith - this includes explaining our faith by defining the terms we would use. You can't build doctrine on sand, you need a firm foundation.

 

[Reformed1689]

I do not believe the Fall changed God in any way.

Nor have I argued such.

 

[JonC]

Nor have I argued such.

You have not, I agree. But if I take your position without changing my view that being spiritually alive means God's Spirit in us then I would be affirming exactly that.

This is why I an asking for definitions. Very often definitions firm the basis of disagreements further down the road.

I not trying to change your view or really argue against it. I am asking how you define spiritual life. It seems we agree this life is Christ at some point. I believe always, you post fall. This leaves another type of life (pre fall) to be defined.

 

[Reformed1689]

You have not, I agree. But if I take your position without changing my view that being spiritually alive means God's Spirit in us then I would be affirming exactly that.

This is why I an asking for definitions. Very often definitions firm the basis of disagreements further down the road.

I've given my definitions. Spiritual life is having that right connection with God. You are in good standing. Christ is the only way to obtain this post-fall. That is not saying God somehow changed. That is something you are adding. In Christ was life. It doesn't say only in Christ is life, as in Christ is the only thing that has life. Post-Fall, Christ is the only life that can save.

But surely you agree the Father has life, the Spirit has life. Yes they are God, but they are not Christ. I'm assuming you affirm the Trinity.

But again, it goes back to definitions.

 

[JonC]

I've given my definitions. Spiritual life is having that right connection with God. You are in good standing. Christ is the only way to obtain this post-fall. That is not saying God somehow changed. That is something you are adding. In Christ was life. It doesn't say only in Christ is life, as in Christ is the only thing that has life. Post-Fall, Christ is the only life that can save.

But surely you agree the Father has life, the Spirit has life. Yes they are God, but they are not Christ. I'm assuming you affirm the Trinity.

But again, it goes back to definitions.

It does go back to definitions.

I believe Christ is this Life, it is God putting His Spirit in us. The result is communion with God.

If I understand you correctly, you see this communion with God itself as this life.

While we agree that Scripture presents Christ as the Life, that we are "of the Spirit" only if the Spirit of God dewkks in us, I disagree that this Life itsekf is its result.

Do you know of a passage that defines life as anything except God dwelling in us? If so, it may help to explore those.

 

[Reformed1689]

It does go back to definitions.

I believe Christ is this Life, it is God putting His Spirit in us. The result is communion with God.

If I understand you correctly, you see this communion with God itself as this life.

While we agree that Scripture presents Christ as the Life, that we are "of the Spirit" only if the Spirit of God dewkks in us, I disagree that this Life itsekf is its result.

Do you know of a passage that defines life as anything except God dwelling in us? If so, it may help to explore those.

Again, we know that sin caused a spiritual death. Being dead in sin. That can't be physical death because it is a present state and we most certainly are not physically dead since we are interacting with each other. It is spiritual death. Adam was not spiritually dead before sin. If you are not dead, you are alive.

 

[JonC]

Again, we know that sin caused a spiritual death. Being dead in sin. That can't be physical death because it is a present state and we most certainly are not physically dead since we are interacting with each other. It is spiritual death. Adam was not spiritually dead before sin. If you are not dead, you are alive.

You are making an assumption.

We do not know that sin caused "spiritual death" per Scripture. This goes back to definitions (sin is a barrier to fellowship with God, so by your definition Adam "spiritually died", but by my definition that life is the Spirit of God in us this is not the case). We do know that sin introduced death (I believe physical death) I to the life of man. But you are assuming what is not actually in the Bible.

You are assuming Adam was not spiritually dead prior to sin (in a state of "missing the mark" in terms of God's righteousness). But Scripture seems to suggest the opposite (that Adam was created flesh/ natural and not spiritual (with the Spirit bring forth that which is spiritual/ "of the Spirit"). We are not talking biology but our state (a spiritual state) in relation to God. Being "spiritually dead" does not mean one had to at one time been "spiritually alive". We are talking an "absence of life". A rock does not have life (it is a "dead" thing in this context). This does not mean the rock had to have been alive at one time and then died. It was never made alive.

We also have to be careful not to make logical errors in our arguments. I mentioned before that the "covenant" with Adam is a logical fallacy (it affirms the inverse of God's command to Adam, which is by definition a formal logical fallacy). Your argument here seems to be approaching that status (to be dead means one must have been alive).

But as you point out, Scripture does not use the words "spiritual death" "died spiritually" and even exactly the words "spiritual life" (although Scripture is very close to the latter in that it speaks of the Spirit alive in us, Christ in us, as being life). The terms then are "natural/ flesh" and "of the Spirit".

What you seem to be suggesting (using biblical terms) is that Adam was created "of the Spirit" rather than "natural/ flesh" and this "Spirit" died in Adam (or Adam died to the Spirit) and became natural/ flesh. The problem is when we use the biblical words to support your position they quickly become unbiblical doctrines. There are no passages that even suggest that Adam's nature changed except for Adam's eyes being opened to, like God, know good and evil. That's all Scripture tells us. So I find it very interesting that you seem to argue your position as if it is factual per Scripture when in truth it is at a greater distance from the actual text of Scripture than mine.

 

[Reformed1689]

You are making an assumption.

We do not know that sin caused "spiritual death" per Scripture. This goes back to definitions (sin is a barrier to fellowship with God, so by your definition Adam "spiritually died", but by my definition that life is the Spirit of God in us this is not the case). We do know that sin introduced death (I believe physical death) I to the life of man. But you are assuming what is not actually in the Bible.

You are assuming Adam was not spiritually dead prior to sin (in a state of "missing the mark" in terms of God's righteousness). But Scripture seems to suggest the opposite (that Adam was created flesh/ natural and not spiritual (with the Spirit bring forth that which is spiritual/ "of the Spirit"). We are not talking biology but our state (a spiritual state) in relation to God. Being "spiritually dead" does not mean one had to at one time been "spiritually alive". We are talking an "absence of life". A rock does not have life (it is a "dead" thing in this context). This does not mean the rock had to have been alive at one time and then died. It was never made alive.

We also have to be careful not to make logical errors in our arguments. I mentioned before that the "covenant" with Adam is a logical fallacy (it affirms the inverse of God's command to Adam, which is by definition a formal logical fallacy). Your argument here seems to be approaching that status (to be dead means one must have been alive).

But as you point out, Scripture does not use the words "spiritual death" "died spiritually" and even exactly the words "spiritual life" (although Scripture is very close to the latter in that it speaks of the Spirit alive in us, Christ in us, as being life). The terms then are "natural/ flesh" and "of the Spirit".

What you seem to be suggesting (using biblical terms) is that Adam was created "of the Spirit" rather than "natural/ flesh" and this "Spirit" died in Adam (or Adam died to the Spirit) and became natural/ flesh. The problem is when we use the biblical words to support your position they quickly become unbiblical doctrines. There are no passages that even suggest that Adam's nature changed except for Adam's eyes being opened to, like God, know good and evil. That's all Scripture tells us. So I find it very interesting that you seem to argue your position as if it is factual per Scripture when in truth it is at a greater distance from the actual text of Scripture than mine.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree John. I clearly see my position in Scripture, you do not because you think, at least from my viewpoint, that things have to be clearly spelled out and that no inferences should ever be made. That's why you don't hold to spiritual death, penal substitution, and you have vaguely signaled in the past (don't remember if it was on this board or elsewhere) that you even are hesitant about the extent to which we hold the Trinity because it is not clearly spelled out in Scripture.

 

[JonC]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree John. I clearly see my position in Scripture, you do not because you think, at least from my viewpoint, that things have to be clearly spelled out and that no inferences should ever be made. That's why you don't hold to spiritual death, penal substitution, and you have vaguely signaled in the past (don't remember if it was on this board or elsewhere) that you even are hesitant about the extent to which we hold the Trinity because it is not clearly spelled out in Scripture.

Absolutely. I knew from the start that we would not agree (I suspect you did as well).

I believe my position is in Scripture.

You are wrong but close in your recollection of my view if the doctrine of the Trinity. I believe Scripture actually states that the Father and Son are One and are God. The Spirit is directly stated to be God's Spirit. (I believe Scripture states the Trinity).

What I believe about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is directly in Scripture in its basic form (an affirmation of the Godhead). We have a more detailed doctrine which involves philosophical issues such as "natures" and "persons" and I agree with this as well. But the former (Scripture) is more important than the latter.

I believe we can argue our points and agree to disagree but ultimately hold one another accountable to Scripture itself (what is actually written). My hesitation is to build on what is not actually in Scripture (like Adam dying spiritually).

 

[percho]

Is resurrection and or change from corruptible to incorruptible absolutely necessary to eternal life of a person?

If the person named Jesus, the Christ, had not been raised from the dead would there be any eternal life?

Was the soul, named Jesus raised from the dead?

Thou will not leave / forsake abandon my soul to Hades ἐγκαταλείψεις

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? ἐγκατέλιπες

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18

Is there a necessary future to our Spiritual death and or Spiritual life. in Christ?

I have confidence by the earnest of the Spirit, yes there is and I will attain unto it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

" In him was life; and the life was the light of men." ( John 1:4 ).

" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" ( John 11:25 ).

" Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ( John 14:6 ).

" as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:2-3 ).

" (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" ( 1 John 1:2 ).

" When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." ( Colossians 3:4 ).

Some excellent verses there, Dave.
Another one along those lines:
1 John 5:12. 'He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.'
What this verse tells us is that there is not halfway house, no third realm. One is either alive in Christ or dead without Him.
Now Christ made Adam, forming him out of the dust of the earth (Genesis 1:26; 2:7; John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6). We can choose to believe that Christ made him dead in trespasses and sins, or we can believe what the Scripture tells us, that the Triune God 'breathed into his nostrils the breath [or 'spirit'] of life and he became a living being' and that he could say with John, 'And truly, our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ' (1 John 1:3).
And we can see that the fellowship was broken by Adam and Eve when they hid from Christ in the garden. We can also see the effects of that broken fellowship in Genesis 5:1-3.

'.......In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created then male and female, and blessed them........' Do we believe that God would bless something dead in trespasses? '....and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and called him Seth.'

So we can see the difference at once between Adam and his offspring. Adam was the son of God (Luke 3:28), and carried his Father's likeness or image. Seth also carried the image of his father. This is not to say that the image in God is utterly destroyed by the Fall; plainly, it is not (e.g. James 3:9). Romans 2:14-15 shows that men still know in their hearts the difference between right and wrong, but now the image is marred, and therefore they lack the will and ability to choose the right consistently (Romans 3:19). The test of true spiritual life in Christ is being able to say, "I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your word is within my heart' (Psalms 40:8; c.f. Psalms 1:2; Psalms 119:97).

 

[JonC]

1 John 5:12. 'He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.'

Is this how you are defining "spiritual life"?

If so, while @davidtaylorjr disagrees at least in terms of pre-fall, I absolutely agree.

What would be your reply to those who believe that "spiritual life" prior to Christ's work is something other than Christ in them (or God's Spirit in them)?

Are you able to articulate a response or is this beyond your theology?

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate ,

Please forgive me if my response seemed confrontational. I am trying to follow your argument on the forum but find it difficult as it seems you need to first define your terms.

 

[Yeshua1]

It's saying the nuance in that passage. But again, the wages cannot only be physical death. In that day, Adam did not die physically. And yes, Jesus was separated from relationship with the Father in one very real sense. God forsake Christ on the cross.

God pronounced death upon adam and all of us in the fall, so spiritual death had to occur right away, while physical death was much later on!
And Jesus indeed experience being forsaken by the father, for while our Sin bearer, endure wrath of God and took on the Judgment of God for sins as all lost sinners will in hell..
That separation is what I believe that Jesus was most concerned about while in the garden...

 

[Yeshua1]

@davidtaylorjr,

Do you believe that God actually puts His Spirit in us, that Christ is the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting?

Would not that seed actually though be the word of God?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, but again, you and I work from very different definitions of things and theological concepts. Remember, spiritual life is not found in Scripture. It is a theological construct derived from Scripture.

whatever it means would be different from the pre Fall Adam state and us now after the fall, as he did not need a Saviour, while we all do now!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe there is only one spiritual life, not one in the OT and one in the NT. What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Remember, Jesus was talking to Nicodemus before the Resurrection.

Adam was in a unique situation before the fall in regards to this, and the OT saints and us now under the NC have a different aspect to this!

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree. First, there is no passage that says Adam will die on the day he eats of the fruit. In English the verse can mean he would die on that day or it could mean on that day he will surely die (death would be certain).

But in the original language it does not pronounce that Adam will experience death on the day he eats of the fruit.

So that argument does not work as proof (it relies on theology imposed onto Scripture).

The death process began the moment that he ate, and we know that he then needed a coming messiah, so would have to been changed to spiritual dead in his sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are dancing around terms, David, and offering a strawman. No one suggested men are not dead in their sins. But it is a fallacy to assume this means Adam was spiritually alive and then died spiritually when he sinned.

How was Adam spiritually alive?

Was it when he was created or when God put him in the Garden?

Why was Adam's "spiritual life" so ineffective?

What are the fruits you see of spiritual life in Adam?

Can you post even one verse that states Adam was created a spiritual being (spiritual life) because I can (and have) provided a verse to the contrary (that Adam was created a natural man, not a spiritual man)?

Being born in sin is not a sin itself. It is being born "under the law of sin and death".



You know what I believe. I do not believe this Life has changed pre-fall to post-fall because I believe Christ is this Life and we are made alive when God puts His Spirit in us. I do not believe the Fall changed God in any way. Jesus did not become life when Adam sinned. He is eternally the Life through Whom all things were made and through whom everything exists. Apart from Christ there is no life.

But you have not explained what you believe spiritual life is.

Please define this life. How can Christ be the Life post-fall but not pre-fall? Are you suggesting John 1 applies only to Jesus after the fall?

adam did not need the messiah until he sinned, so he would be in a spiritual relationship with God, correct?