Spiritual Life

[JonC]

Did you look up the BDAG entry?

No. I didn't. I'm on my phone and do not have one avaliable.

If it defines "death" as "an absence of a relationship with God" as the meaning of the Greek word then it doesn't matter as I no longer would consider the BDAG relevant.

Strictly speaking the word (I believe in Romans, but without question in Corinthians) is speaking of physical death. For example, it makes no sense to say that Jesus was told of the death of John the Baptist (that John was separated from a relationship with God) by being beheaded.

That said, I do believe spiritual death is such a state. But this depends on context. Jesus was obviously not "separated from a relationship with God" by dying as He is God.

 

[JonC]

@davidtaylorjr,

Do you believe that God actually puts His Spirit in us, that Christ is the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting?

 

[Reformed1689]

No. I didn't. I'm on my phone and do not have one avaliable.

If it defines "death" as "an absence of a relationship with God" as the meaning of the Greek word then it doesn't matter as I no longer would consider the BDAG relevant.

Strictly speaking the word (I believe in Romans, but without question in Corinthians) is speaking of physical death. For example, it makes no sense to say that Jesus was told of the death of John the Baptist (that John was separated from a relationship with God) by being beheaded.

That said, I do believe spiritual death is such a state. But this depends on context. Jesus was obviously not "separated from a relationship with God" by dying as He is God.

It's saying the nuance in that passage. But again, the wages cannot only be physical death. In that day, Adam did not die physically. And yes, Jesus was separated from relationship with the Father in one very real sense. God forsake Christ on the cross.

 

[Reformed1689]

@davidtaylorjr,

Do you believe that God actually puts His Spirit in us, that Christ is the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting?

Yes, but again, you and I work from very different definitions of things and theological concepts. Remember, spiritual life is not found in Scripture. It is a theological construct derived from Scripture.

 

[JonC]

It's saying the nuance in that passage. But again, the wages cannot only be physical death. In that day, Adam did not die physically. And yes, Jesus was separated from relationship with the Father in one very real sense. God forsake Christ on the cross.

I disagree. First, there is no passage that says Adam will die on the day he eats of the fruit. In English the verse can mean he would die on that day or it could mean on that day he will surely die (death would be certain).

But in the original language it does not pronounce that Adam will experience death on the day he eats of the fruit.

So that argument does not work as proof (it relies on theology imposed onto Scripture).

 

[Reformed1689]

I disagree. First, there is no passage that says Adam will die on the day he eats of the fruit. In English the verse can mean he would die on that day or it could mean on that day he will surely die (death would be certain).

But in the original language it does not pronounce that Adam will experience death on the day he eats of the fruit.

So that argument does not work as proof (it relies on theology imposed onto Scripture).

That is your opinion. I believe your opinion is wrong.

 

[JonC]

Yes, but again, you and I work from very different definitions of things and theological concepts. Remember, spiritual life is not found in Scripture. It is a theological construct derived from Scripture.

We do work from very different positions and I believe this accounts for much.

But I believe you are wrong on one very important point. "Spiritual death" does not appear in Scripture, true. The concept if spiritually dying is absent. But there is a state of being dead in the context of an absence of the Spirit.

I believe those verses speak of spiritual life.

How do you believe that God actually putting His Spirit in us, that Christ being the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting differs from spiritual life?

 

[JonC]

That is your opinion. I believe your opinion is wrong.

That is actually not an opinion. Read the passage. The idea that Adam was to die spiritually when he ate the fruit and physically down the road is in fact not in the passage. But the double use of "die" (a repetition in every other case means an emphatic) is actually in the text.

So we can say that God told Adam that on the day you eat of the fruit death will be certain (emphatic, without a doubt).

If this means two deaths then that is an opinion because it is not in Scripture. It may be true, but it is not actually in the Biblical text.

One obstacle is, of course, that Scripture does say it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. But I can see how this can be dismissed as non applicable.

 

[Reformed1689]

That is actually not an opinion. Read the passage. The idea that Adam was to die spiritually when he ate the fruit and physically down the road is in fact not in the passage. But the double use of "die" (a repetition in every other case means an emphatic) is actually in the text.

So we can say that God told Adam that on the day you eat of the fruit death will be certain (emphatic, without a doubt).

If this means two deaths then that is an opinion because it is not in Scripture. It may be true, but it is not actually in the Biblical text.

One obstacle is, of course, that Scripture does say it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. But I can see how this can be dismissed as non applicable.

John it is necessitated by Scripture as a whole. We are dead in sin. Dead is a present state, not a future state.

 

[JonC]

John it is necessitated by Scripture as a whole. We are dead in sin. Dead is a present state, not a future state.

It is not necessitated by Scripture but by your theological system.

We are dead in our sin. Death is a present state (so is everlasting life). But this is not speaking of "dying". "Spiritual death" is the absence of spiritual life (it is being born of the flesh but not of the Spirit). That is the distinction Scripture makes. There is the natural (the flesh) and the spiritual (born of the Spirit).

How do you believe that God actually putting His Spirit in us, that Christ being the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting differs from spiritual life?

 

[Reformed1689]

It is not necessitated by Scripture but by your theological system.

We are dead in our sin. Death is a present state (so is everlasting life). But this is not speaking of "dying". "Spiritual death" is the absence of spiritual life (it is being born of the flesh but not of the Spirit). That is the distinction Scripture makes. There is the natural (the flesh) and the spiritual (born of the Spirit).

How do you believe that God actually putting His Spirit in us, that Christ being the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting differs from spiritual life?

Again, we are never going to agree for several reasons.

1. We have different definitions.
2. You seem to want things to be exactly the same pre-fall and post-fall when, to me, Scripture makes clear they are not the same.

 

[Reformed1689]

That is actually not an opinion. Read the passage. The idea that Adam was to die spiritually when he ate the fruit and physically down the road is in fact not in the passage. But the double use of "die" (a repetition in every other case means an emphatic) is actually in the text.

Notice that is not actually what I said in the post that you quoted. The passage does necessitate that there is a death on the day that the fruit was eaten. You cannot possibly read that any other way. And there was. There was a spiritual death.

 

[JonC]

Again, we are never going to agree for several reasons.

1. We have different definitions.
2. You seem to want things to be exactly the same pre-fall and post-fall when, to me, Scripture makes clear they are not the same.

Oh, I absolutely agree that we will not agree. That is not the point. The point is to strengthen each of our views while understanding one another more adequately.

Things were not the same pre-post Fall. Scripture tells us what changed. Adam's eyes were opened and he became "like God" knowing good and evil. He would have to work the land. And death would be certain for mankind. God subjected Creation to futility.

Scripture never speaks of Adam, or anyone else, experiencing spiritual death. There is death, there is physical life, and there is the Life that is Christ. There is the Second Death when death and hades are cast into the Lake of fire. But nowhere are the things you speak so dogmatically about here is actually in the Bible.

 

[JonC]

Notice that is not actually what I said in the post that you quoted. The passage does necessitate that there is a death on the day that the fruit was eaten. You cannot possibly read that any other way. And there was. There was a spiritual death.

You are wrong. Many actually interpret the passage as "dying you shall die". The language itself is just "die" stated twice. In any other circumstance this would be empjmhatic (in OT repetition such as the Psalms, in the NT use "cert truly). NEVER (not even one time) is such repetition translated in such a way except here in Genesis.

So the inerpretation" on the day you eat of it you shall surely die" is a legitimate interpretation. On that day death became certain and mankind became enslaved to the law of sin and death.

The reason is you are viewing the verse through your theology. Nowhere is" spiritually dying" stated in Scripture. But it is fundamental to your theology.

That is the difference. I do not share that theology do I am not seeking Scripture through it.

 

[JonC]

@davidtaylorjr,

How do you believe that God actually putting His Spirit in us, that Christ being the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting differs from spiritual life?

 

[Reformed1689]

Scripture never speaks of Adam, or anyone else, experiencing spiritual death. There is death, there is physical life, and there is the Life that is Christ. There is the Second Death when death and hades are cast into the Lake of fire. But nowhere are the things you speak so dogmatically about here is actually in the Bible.

Again, that is your opinion, I reject your opinion. I, and others, have shown that it is in fact found in Scripture.

You are wrong. Many actually interpret the passage as "dying you shall die". The language itself is just "die" stated twice. In any other circumstance this would be empjmhatic (in OT repetition such as the Psalms, in the NT use "cert truly). NEVER (not even one time) is such repetition translated in such a way except here in Genesis.

So the inerpretation" on the day you eat of it you shall surely die" is a legitimate interpretation. On that day death became certain and mankind became enslaved to the law of sin and death.

The reason is you are viewing the verse through your theology. Nowhere is" spiritually dying" stated in Scripture. But it is fundamental to your theology.

That is the difference. I do not share that theology do I am not seeking Scripture through it.

Again, we have shown that spiritual death did, in fact, occur on that very day.

 

[JonC]

Again, that is your opinion, I reject your opinion. I, and others, have shown that it is in fact found in Scripture.


Again, we have shown that spiritual death did, in fact, occur on that very day.

You and others have said you believe Scripture teaches Adam died two deaths (spiritually and then physically). That is very different from actually showing it as a "fact" found in Scripture.

As evidence, post just one passage stating Adam died spiritually and highlight "died spiritually". In fact, provide one passage that states anyone died spiritually and highlight "died spiritually".

You cannot because it is not "a fact found in Scripture" (which is why you have many scholars disagreeing with your view just as many hold your view). It is your opinion (your interpretation of Scripture based on the Biblical text through your theology).

That said, I have explained my view by actual Scripture. I agree on that day "mûth mûth". We agree there. Where we disagree is I do not see it proper to add "you will spiritually die on that day and physically die later on down the road". I believe Scripture sufficient on that part.

But we can disagree. I understand your view.

What you have not done is discyss spiritual life. I do not know your view there.

 

[JonC]

@davidtaylorjr,

You affirmed what I believe is spiritual life as occurring. How do you believe that God actually putting His Spirit in us, that Christ being the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting differs from spiritual life?

 

[Reformed1689]

You and others have said you believe Scripture teaches Adam died two deaths (spiritually and then physically). That is very different from actually showing it as a "fact" found in Scripture.

As evidence, post just one passage stating Adam died spiritually and highlight "died spiritually". In fact, provide one passage that states anyone died spiritually and highlight "died spiritually".

You cannot because it is not "a fact found in Scripture" (which is why you have many scholars disagreeing with your view just as many hold your view). It is your opinion (your interpretation of Scripture based on the Biblical text through your theology).

That said, I have explained my view by actual Scripture. I agree on that day "mûth mûth". We agree there. Where we disagree is I do not see it proper to add "you will spiritually die on that day and physically die later on down the road". I believe Scripture sufficient on that part.

But we can disagree. I understand your view.

What you have not done is discyss spiritual life. I do not know your view there.

We are dead and sin John. Yes, that is a fact. Adam was not dead in sin prior to fall because he had not sinned. He was not born in sin like we are. So in the day that he sinned, on that very day, that very moment, he became spiritually dead in his sin. Yes, that is absolutely a fact found in Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

@davidtaylorjr,

You affirmed what I believe is spiritual life as occurring. How do you believe that God actually putting His Spirit in us, that Christ being the Life, that life is "Christ in us", that we are reborn of "imperishable seed", of a life everlasting differs from spiritual life?

Again. Difference between pre-post fall.