Churches of Christ

I know you don't leave out belief, but clearly, that was what the focus is on, and baptism was only an outward sign of it.

Also to add to Jump's point, if the water of baptism had some almost literal "washing" effect toward sins (from the way you all have generally described it), then the theif on the Cross would not be saved. but then, you all calim that was different because Christ had not died yet, or something like that, right?

 

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is a gift of God.raying:

I have no faith in the saving power of water.

End of story.

 

You are right. Water has no saving power. If that were the case, then swimmers would be saved.

However, if you only go to one verse, at the exclusion of all others, you will never have the truth. The sum of God's word is truth (Psalm 119:160)

The power is in the blood. Jesus blood was shed for the remission of sins (Matt 26:28).

For those who believe and repent, baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

The same Greek phrase is used in both verses. If both of these statements are true, and they are, then at baptism, the blood of Jesus washes away our sins.

Isn't that what Saul was told in Acts 22:16, "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord".

Now, was Jesus just kidding when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". - Mark 16:16

Why is it so hard for people to believe the simple words of Jesus????

 

The same question has been asked of you repeatedly regarding two verses of Scripture that you continue to dodge and dance around.

Acts 16:30-31 clearly asks the question what must I do to be saved. And the direct answer to the direct question is believe.

So the question to you is why is it so hard for people to believe the simple words of the Bible?

Jesus meant exactly what He said in Mark 16:16 and people have repeatedly told you that, but your understanding is errant, becuase Jesus is not going to contradict the rest of Scripture.

And if baptism is a requirement for salvation then that clearly contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 among several other verses of Scripture. Again this is so simple to see, but yet you choose to continue in your man-made theology just as continued proof that you have no desire to change your views despite the clear teaching of Scripture.

 

No, I didn't contradict myself, you just won't accept the fact that just because obedience is required, obedience does not equal merit.

So, the walls of Jericho, did they fall by faith or as a reward?

Believe God. Believe Jesus. He is the one who said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" (Mark 16:16, Heb 5:9, respectively).

God did not take obedience out of faith in Heb 11. Every example had some type of action. That is faith. Use that definition of faith in Eph 2.

You really need another example than Acts 16:30-31, because, as I have already shown, he rejoiced having believed (Acts 16:34). Of course this was after his repentance and baptism.

I already addressed these in the prior reply. Refute what I said, don't just state the same verses again.

You have shown me NOTHING!!! Your replies are fluff, containing no little to no scripture. Usually, they amount to nothing more than the idea that I wouldn't change so why bother, which lets me know that you either don't care about me or you do not have enough knowledge to refute what is said.

Again, this just proves my point. When I show you scriptures that directly conflict with your statements, such as "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," - Heb 5:9, you ignore them.

I promise if you could show me through using the scriptures where I am wrong, I will change. Simply stating, no you're wrong, is of no value. Open your bible and we can talk.

 

Again, you referenced Acts 16:30-31. Is that the whole story? Let's see all that God has said.

Acts 16:30-34 "Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God."

Notice the sequence of event:

1) Told to believe (believe what? They hadn't spoken the word of the Lord yet)
2) They spoke the word of the Lord
3) Washed their wounds (shows repentance)
4) Baptized at once
5) rejoiced that he had believed in God

When could it be said that he believed in God? Before he even heard the word of the Lord or after he heard it and obeyed it? The scripture says he rejoiced after his baptism.

Why would he rejoice? He had done exactly what Jesus had said in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and what Peter told those on the day of Pentecost, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins". He certainly had a reason to rejoice.

There is no wonder that you do not include the "rest of the story", because that conflicts with what you believe.

You say you believe exactly what Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

So, you acknowledge that the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, great. Now we are getting somewhere.

 

Your admonishment to take the Bible as a whole is advice that you should take as well.

The Bible is replete with statements that we are saved by grace through faith and on a few rare occasions baptism is made to sound like it is also required.

The Greek word you are referring to is "eis" which can mean "for" or "because of". "Because of" actually does fit with the doctrine of taking scripture as a whole and "for" does not.

 

That's obviously the lie you tell yourself to twist and dance around Scripture that clearly says otherwise. Obedience is your works, therefore if salvation comes by your works then it is wage based salvation not a grace based system. You can not get around that. You continue to lie to yourself if you want to, but you have clearly been shown over and over and over and over and over (get the picture) by a number of different people that you are in error and you are continuing to teach error.

Again I can pick and choose Scripture and prove a lot of things that are false if I want to ignore other verses. You prove nothing by your cherry picking. You are comparing apples and oranges. Context tells us that these Scriptures have NOTHING to do with eternal salvation.

Go back into chapter 10 and get the context of what is being talked about. It's the salvation of the soul not spiritual salvation, but again that has already been shown to you. And again works of any sort contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 and at least one passage in Romans, but you won't see it either.

There's nothing to refute. The direct question was asked what must I do to be saved. And the direct answer was given and it said believe and you will be saved. That can't be any more simple. You just have to believe it.

But in order to continue in your man-made error you say the man wasn't saved until he rejoiced. Give me a break. That's not even worth taking the time to comment on it is so out of whack.

The simple thing is if anything was required of salvation other than believing then that would have been a part of the answer given, but it wasn't because it's not. It really is that simple. Believe it and be saved.

You have been shown time and time again that you are in error. You are still in error and until you quit relying on yourself for your salvation and rely only on the substitutionary work of Jesus you will be in error.

Numerous people have tried to get you to see this, but in your arrogance you continue in your man-made doctrine.

I've already dealt with you on this issue and you choose to ignore it. The walls of Jericho have NOTHING to do with eternal salvation. If you want to see a picture of eternal salvation go back to Exodus 12. Jericho is long after that point.

Both of which are lies. A number of people have tried to help you and you refused to be helped. What's that saying you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...that's mman.

Last time I check rejoicing wasn't a requirement of salvation. He was told what to believe. You even quoted it yourself - Believe in the Lord Jesus.

mman bottom line is you are in error, your denomination teaches error and everyone that follows along the same line is in error.

 

Eric,

bmerr here. It is a true statement that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). As I said, apart from belief, baptism avails nothing. Obedience is always the outward sign of one's faith, or belief in the word of God. Apart from obedience, one's faith is of no avail (James 2:14-26). Faith without works is dead.

Eric, it's not water that penitent believers are to put their faith in. Their faith is to be in Christ, and is made known by their obedience to the command to be baptized for the remission of sins. One's faith is to be in the operation of God (Col 2:12).

The thief on the cross (TTOC) was saved under the Old Testament, because that was still in effect until Jesus died (Heb 9:16-17). TTOC was never commanded to be baptized under the NT. It is possible that he had submitted to the baptism of John, but I doubt it could be proved either way from Scripture.

It's not just our opinion, it's what the Bible says.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

J. Jump,

bmerr here. Have you ever heard the expression, "Jesus meets people at their point of need"? The Phillipian jailer (PJ) is just such a case.

For contrast, consider the crowd on Pentecost (Acts 2). At no point were they ever commanded to believe on Jesus Christ. Even at the end of Peter's sermon, when they asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?", Peter did not tell them to believe. Why do you suppose that is? Simply because they already did. Accordingly, they were told to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

Next, consider Saul of Tarsus, blinded by the heavenly vision of the Christ he saw on the road to Damascus, praying and fasting for three days until Ananias was sent to him. He was not told to believe or repent. Why not? Because he already believed, and had already repented. Accordingly, he was told, "And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

Now, back to PJ. PJ had not yet heard the gospel. From the text, the most he might have heard was that Paul and Silas were "...servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation" Acts 16:17). This would be enough information for him to ask what he asked (Acts 16:31). He needed to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But believe what about Him? He needed to hear the gospel in order to have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, agreed?

Well, if we keep reading, we find that in the very next verse, Paul and Silas "...spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house". Since faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17), it is only at this point that he can possibly have faith by which to be saved. At this point he is where the Pentecostians were.

And if we keep reading some more, we see PJ washing the stripes of Paul and Silas, as opposed to locking them in the inner prison, thus demonstrating repentance. Now he's where Saul of Tarsus was.

And if we keep reading just a little further, we find that he and his household went out in the middle of the night and were baptized. Finally, PJ has ended up right where Saul and the Pentecostians did. Added to the church (Acts 2:47), sins remitted, or washed away (2:38; 22:16), saved (2:40).

Is it at all possible that your understanding of Eph 2:8-9 and Acts 16:31 is errant, thus causing you to think there is a contradiction between them and Mark 16:16, and requiring an alternate explanation of such a plain verse?

Again, is it not possible that you are in error, J. Jump? You are the only one who has made mention of a contradiction. For mman and I, there is absolutely no contradiction in the above mentioned, or any other two verses in the Bible.

Is it not possible that the closed mind is yours?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

J.Jump,

bmerr here. I may be wrong, but I believe you have caught yourself in a contradiction of your own.

You cite Acts 16:30-31, claiming that "NBEDIENCE" was required, and yet Paul commanded the jailer to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."

If salvation of any kind (since you indicate there are different kinds of salvation) were by faith only, apart from any obedience, would the jailer be saved without obeying the command to believe? Get back to me...

In Christ,

bmerr

 

bmerr are you kidding me. You want to equate faith with a work?

Just accept what the Bible says. Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Not maybe you'll be saved if you do some other things after you believe, but believe on the Lord and you WILL BE saved!

When I'm talking about obedience I'm talking about a work requirement of doing something just as baptism, feeding the poor, selling all one has and giving to the poor, living a good life, etc. whatever kind of works you want to put in there.

Of course we have to be obedient to what God has said that is exactly what faith is. And for eternal salvation He has said that Jesus lived a perfect life, shed is blood and died in my place. If I believe in that I will be, not maybe, but will be saved.

Let's keep the simple message of grace by faith, and that not of works lest any man should boast as simple as God intended it to be and understanding Scripture would be a lot easier.

 

J. Jump,

bmerr here. I certainly do! Jesus did. Read John 6:28-29.

28 Then they said unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I'll even keep reading and see what it means to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved. Will you?

Obedience is doing what God said, in the way God said to do it, for the reason God said to do it. Anything less is not obedience, but doing one's own thing.

That message of salvation by grace through faith is preached from Acts 2 through every conversion account Inspiration has provided us with. Every one of them includes faith, repentance, and baptism, either stated or implied. and not one of those converts is recorded as boasting.

Very simple.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Does your bible have Acts 16:34?

Here it is just is case it doesn't, "Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God."

Of course the rejoicing is not a requirement for salvation, it is the natural response.

He rejoiced having believed. Remember, he was told to believe and he would be saved. Did anything happen in between these two verses?

Yes, as a matter of fact, there were some things that happened.

First of all, if you stop, as you chose to do, in verse 31, he doesn't know what to believe. Believe what? They haven't even spoken the word of the Lord to him yet.

What is the response of speaking the word of the Lord to him? He shows his repentance by washing their stripes and is baptized at once.

Then and only then did he rejoice having believed.

These events are in agreement with those in Acts 2. Here we have believers asking "What must we do". The answer was repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (vs 38).

Those who received the word were baptized (vs 41).

Verse 44 starts out, "And all who believed". These people who are described as believers are the same ones who repented and were baptized.

What was the purpose for their baptism? For the remission of sins. If you can understand Matt 26:28, "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.", then you can understand Acts 2:38, "38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;' because the EXACT GREEK PRHASE is used in both verses.

This in no way contradicts Eph 2:8-9, or any other scripture. You hold on to Eph 2:8-9 at the exclusion of all other verses. You must perform your mental gymnastics to explain away the plain teachings of scripture. You are not alone.

Earlier, you indicated that Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." can't mean what it says, because we are saved by faith thru grace and that would be a contradiction.

Since we know there are no contradictions, these two verses are in harmony. Jesus had just given them a commission to go preach the gospel to the whole creation (Mark 16:15). The apostles began this in Acts 2. When they asked, "What must we do", the reply came back to these believers, "Repent and be baptized...for the remission of sins".

What is the logical conclusion of Mark 16:16? That one must believe and be baptized to be saved.

What is the logical conclusion of Acts 2:38? That one must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Are these two verses in harmony or conflicted. They are in harmony.

In Acts 8, Philip preached Christ to them (vs 5). Verse 12 tells us, "But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

Preaching Christ and the good news includes instructions for water baptism.

Does this agree with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38?

Later Philip preached Jesus to the Eunuch (vs 35). The first question from the Eunuch was, " "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?" (vs 36). What was the reply? "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (vs 37).

He was then baptized and went on his way rejoicing (vs 38-39).

Is Acts 8:38-39 in agreement with Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and Acts 8:12? Yes, the same thing is happening again and again.

The Jailer that you like to reference so much is in complete agreement with these accounts, IF YOU READ THE WHOLE STORY. He was told to believe, they spoke the word of the Lord to him, he repented and was baptized at once, then he rejoiced having believed (Act 16:31-34).

Is Acts 16:31-34 in agreement with Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12, and Acts 8:38-39? Yes.

Saul of Tarsus had seen the Lord on the road to Damascus. Jesus told him, "“Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” (Acts 9:6)

What was the first thing he was told to DO? "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16. He we have a believer who has been praying for 3 days and is told to be baptized and wash away his sins.

Does Acts 22:16 agree with Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12, Acts 8:38-39, Acts 16:31-34? Yes it does.

Do all these agree with Eph 2:8-9? Certainly they do.

Ephesians was written to Christians, not to alien sinners telling them how to be saved. The Ephesian had obeyed Jesus command in Mark 16:16, and followed the examples in Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12, Acts 8:38-39, Acts 16:31-34, and Acts 22:16. They were already forgiven.

Does baptism merit anything? No, of course not. It doesn't even make sense, how could it be of work of merit? Who could boast of being dunked beneath the water?

If faith equals belief only, and a person is saved when they first believe, then you have to explain away Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12, Acts 8:38-39, Acts 22:16, and many other passages.

If faith equals an obedient belief, as shown throughout the bible and magnified in Heb 11, then Eph 2:8-9, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12, Acts 8:38-39 and Acts 22:16 are all in harmony, as well as James 2:14-26, that shows faith without action (belief only) is dead and even the demons believe.

Gal 3:26-27 puts these verse in perfect and complete harmony, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

This is how Eph 2:8-9 and the passages dealing with baptism are all shown to be in perfect and complete harmony.

You can search your bible from cover to cover and you will only find one way into Christ, and that is through baptism.

In Christ is where one finds salvation (II Tim 2:10), redemption (Eph 1:7), eternal life (Eph 6:23), no condemnation (Rom 8:1), a new creation (II Cor 5:17), justification by faith (Gal 2:16), or as Paul sums it up, all spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3).

Therefore, outside of Christ, there are no spiritual blessings.

According to the scriptures, we are baptized into Christ (Rom 6:3-4 and Gal 3:26-27).

 

bmerr this is even more of a contradiction than saying baptism is a requirement for salvation. If works come into play it is not grace. Why is that so difficult to understand?

It flies clearly in the face of Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4.

But just to touch on this verse, everything in a Christian's life has to come by faith and believing. The Bible says if it is not of faith then it is sin. We have to believe what God says about living the victorious Christian life or we will live in defeat. Faith and belief don't go away after salvation. They must continue if one wants to grow.

But just because the word believe is used in a sentence of Scripture doesn't mean it is talkinga about grace through faith. And just because the word salvation is used doesn't mean it is talking about grace through faith.

There is the salvation of the spirit, salvation of the soul and the salvation of the body.

I Th 5:23 - Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's all contained within the Gospel message but as someone said earlier they are different phases. We must keep these phases separate so that we can understand what's going on. CoC is trying to cram soulical salvation and body salvation passages into spiritual salvation passages and they just don't fit.

That's not the message preached in Acts 2. The message preached in Acts 2 is a kingdom message. They didn't ask the question what shall we do to be saved. They asked what shall we do. The question was in context of them having just killed their King. What shall we do to right this wrong.

Another way to tell that this message wasn't about eternal salvation was because the very last verse tells us that there was added 3,000 souls that day. If it was a message of grace through faith then it would have said added was 3,000 spirits that day, because grace through faith is spiritual salvation not soulical salvation.

Now let me ask you a question. Would Paul have been saved if he would have died during one of those three days before he got baptized? Because he didn't get baptized right away.

 

Why in the world do you want Saul to have his sins forgiven as a result of believing and praying when Acts 22:16 clearly states that his sins were not yet washed away? Jesus had told him to go into the city and it would be told to him what he must do. The first thing he was told to do is "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord".

Do you believe a person is saved, never having his sins washed away?

Obviously calling on the name of the Lord involves more than believing and prayer, because Saul had already done that and still had sins that needed to be washed away.

Every scripture that tells us how one gets INTO Christ says it is through baptism.

Do you think a person can be saved outside of Christ? Salvation is found in Christ (II Tim 2:10).

Justification by faith is found in Christ (Gal 2:16). Can one be saved without justification by faith? He then goes on and reminds them that they were baptized INTO Christ (Gal 3:27).

Had Saul complied with Jesus words, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?

If Jesus meant, "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized." why didn't he say that?

What did Jesus say? "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

What do you think he really meant? I think He meant, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Had Saul obeyed this?

What makes anyone think he was saved on the road or as a result of praying, when the scripture clearly indicates his sins were not yet washed away? I know there are some who have to perform some mental gymnastics of olympic caliber to try and explain this away and force it to fit their theology.

Certainly, the logical conclusion is that Saul had sins that needed to be washed away through baptism which is how one calls on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)

 

That would be a self-description of you mman. You certainly do have to do some mental gymnastics to get that to fit your twisted/false theology.

 

Let's just test your accusation to see if you are accurate or misguided. I am willing to go through all the verses to see if I have twisted anything. Let's start with this one.

1) Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned.

mman - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned

JJ - He that believeth is saved... (you can fill in the rest or change the first part)

Please show me how I have twisted this verse.

 

Imagine the consternation of a military chaplain ministering to a dying soldier who repents of his sins, accepts Christ as his saviour, and immediately dies.

I guess the erroneous doctrinal belief of baptism being required for salvation means that that soldier died unsaved.:tear:

 

"The little Greek word "eis" is here translated "for," but is translated in the New Testament in the following ways and number of times: "against" 25, "among" 16, "at" 20, "for" 91, "in" 131, "into" 571, "that" 30, "on" 57, "to" 282, "toward" 32, "unto" 208, and "upon" 25. "