Churches of Christ

[J. Jump]

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned.

mman that is clearly what that verse says. However you are twisting the meaning of the verse to fit your theology. You think becaue the word "saved" is used in the text that it automatically equates to eternal salvation. That is twisting Scripture to fit your theology. Instead of automatically assuming something you need to see if it fits with Scripture.

If you would do that you would see that this context does not speak of spiritual salvation, because it is in direct violation of Ephesians 2, Acts 16 and Romans 4. Therefore the "saved" in this verse can not and doesn't mean what you want it to mean. You can either let the Bible say what it says or you can continue to believe and proclaim your false doctrine.

You continue to choose to do the later. But this isn't new to you. I have said it over and over and over to you and so have others.

Just to carry it out further Mark 16:17 clearly shows us what the context of this passage is all about. "These signs will accompany those who have believed"

Signs are for Jews only. So when you believe and are baptized do you become a Jew?

And here are the signs that were to follow: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

So tell me when was the last time you cast out a demon? When was the last time you spoke in new tongues? How about snakes. Does it not bother you to go anywhere a poisonous snake is? If it does then you are clearly not believing the Word. How about the last time you drank some poison? Have you done that? Do you lay hands on the sick and have them recover?

You should be able to do all those things.

Again just because the words saved, salvation, gospel or eternal are used we can't assign our own meanings as most have done throughout history, but we must allow the Bible to tell us what these words mean.

 

[J. Jump]

Imagine the consternation of a military chaplain ministering to a dying soldier who repents of his sins, accepts Christ as his saviour, and immediately dies.

I guess the erroneous doctrinal belief of baptism being required for salvation means that that soldier died unsaved.

Great question. I can't wait to hear the answer to this one, but I haven't heard them answer my question yet along the same lines, so we'll see. It puts them in a very difficult spot.

 

[Eric B]

Eric, it's not water that penitent believers are to put their faith in. Their faith is to be in Christ, and is made known by their obedience to the command to be baptized for the remission of sins. One's faith is to be in the operation of God (Col 2:12).

Still, the water is the integral point of it, esppecially when you speak of "washing" one's sinms away. It is either literal, or it is spiritual, in which case, it has nothing to do with water, except as an outward sign.

Jump, I have been observing your position of soul salvation versus spirit salvation, and while I know nothing about such a position (and haven't had much time lately to reasearch it), still, it along with the aspects of preterism I have been looking into (that NT Christians were in a transition between OT and NT until the Temple was destroyed, explaining some of the apparent "works" language), it did seem to have a point when you said

They didn't ask the question what shall we do [U]to be saved[/U]. They asked what shall we do. The question was [B]in context of them having just killed their King[/B]. What shall we do to right this wrong.

This might help explain why the "washing away of sins" was so tied with the act of baptism then, even after they believed. "To whom much is given, much is expected". Those who lived during Christ, and saw Him and rejected Him (and particularly being involed in His crucifixion) had to go further to prove their repentance and allegiance in order to have their sins actually washed away. So it was a bit more like the atonement ritual, where they had to do something to have their sins covered (and also the CoC'er's favorite OT examples like the walls of Jericho). But clearly, it is ultimately not about the water. And in the confusion of different Churches today, where a convert may not be able to find one to "join" and be baptized into for months or years, we cannot say that a person is not saved until they are baptized.

Even though some of these ideas may sound weird, it is still noce when people try to find a more correct understanding of scripture, rather than just trying to eliminate seeming conflicts by forcing it into a sectarian party line.:wavey:

 

[mman]

mman that is clearly what that verse says. However you are twisting the meaning of the verse to fit your theology. You think becaue the word "saved" is used in the text that it automatically equates to eternal salvation. That is twisting Scripture to fit your theology. Instead of automatically assuming something you need to see if it fits with Scripture.

If you would do that you would see that this context does not speak of spiritual salvation, because it is in direct violation of Ephesians 2, Acts 16 and Romans 4. Therefore the "saved" in this verse can not and doesn't mean what you want it to mean. You can either let the Bible say what it says or you can continue to believe and proclaim your false doctrine.

You continue to choose to do the later. But this isn't new to you. I have said it over and over and over to you and so have others.

Just to carry it out further Mark 16:17 clearly shows us what the context of this passage is all about. "These signs will accompany those who have believed"

Signs are for Jews only. So when you believe and are baptized do you become a Jew?

And here are the signs that were to follow: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

So tell me when was the last time you cast out a demon? When was the last time you spoke in new tongues? How about snakes. Does it not bother you to go anywhere a poisonous snake is? If it does then you are clearly not believing the Word. How about the last time you drank some poison? Have you done that? Do you lay hands on the sick and have them recover?

You should be able to do all those things.

Again just because the words saved, salvation, gospel or eternal are used we can't assign our own meanings as most have done throughout history, but we must allow the Bible to tell us what these words mean.

Jesus had just rebuked his apostles for their unbelief. Mark 16:14 states, "Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.'

Then he commission them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

This message is clearly for all creation and every creature, not the Jews only. The parallel account in Matthew also confirms this.

Those signs did follow those that believe, i.e., his apostles whom he had just rebuked. Verse 20 makes this clear, "And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs."

The "they" is the apostles or the eleven he was talking with, that were just commissioned to go and preach the gospel to all of creation, and those who believed the gospel were to be baptized for the remission of sins (vs 16).

Notice in verse 20 the purpose of the signs was to confirm their word. The word has been confirmed. Heb 2:3-4, "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

The message has been confirmed and does not need or require further confirming.

Your hope that "saved" has a different meaning in Mark 16:16, than it does in Acts 16 and Eph 2 is without support. The english does not support this idea and neither does the Greek. In fact, they all have the same meaning.

So do you think that when Jesus said, "all the world", "every creature", and "all nations" he was refering to the Jews only? Is that what you really believe?

 

[carpro]

Imagine the consternation of a military chaplain ministering to a dying soldier who repents of his sins, accepts Christ as his saviour, and immediately dies.

I guess the erroneous doctrinal belief of baptism being required for salvation means that that soldier died unsaved.:tear:

I would appreciate an answer to this pertinent question from someone who espouses the belief that baptism is required for salvation.

Did this soldier die in a saved or unsaved condition?

Anyone?

 

[mman]

Great question. I can't wait to hear the answer to this one, but I haven't heard them answer my question yet along the same lines, so we'll see. It puts them in a very difficult spot.

Next to him is a person who has been fatally wounded. A person is on his way to talk to him about Jesus. He would have believed if he had only heard the word. Sadly he dies before he hears the gospel. Is he lost?

These made up examples are all CHAFF and unprofitable.

What does the bible say?

It is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18).

Can one be saved outside of Christ. What determines how we get INTO Christ? My feelings or what God has said. According to the scriptures, how does one get INTO Christ. For you to answer that, I'm sure you would be forced to go to passages that don't specifically address this and ignore the ones that do.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned".

Did He say, "He that believeth and would be baptized if they had an opportunity shall be saved...."?

Did He say, "He that believeth shall be saved"?

If Jesus really meant, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and went ahead and saved people who had not been baptized, wouldn't that make Him a liar?

I know that people are required to come up with elaborate theories to explain away the clear teaching concerning baptism, in order to maintain their current belief system. If you want to understand the purpose of baptism, then look at the passages dealing with it.

What are the obvious conclusions of these simple passages:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 6:3-7 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Gal 3:26-27 "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

I Pet 3:20-21, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Eph 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"

Col 2:12 "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:35-36 "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Acts 16:30-34 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

One is never in a difficult spot when he speaks where the bible speaks and is silent where the bible is silent.

The difficult spot comes when you ignore passages that don't fit what you believe.

 

[J. Jump]

Your hope that "saved" has a different meaning in Mark 16:16

This really shows your inability to change your views and see Scripture in the proper context. I know the words are the same words used. That's my whole point. I know the words spoken of have the same meaning. But the context of the passage is what is key, becuase it is the context that will tell you what is being spoken of in regard to salvation.

You're trying really hard not to understand what I'm talking about and you're doing a great job of it. Context tells you what the salvation is talking about whether it's the salvation of the spirit which is eternal, not of works, a work of Jesus/Holy Spirit/God, without fear of loss, or the salvation of the soul which is temporal, based on cooperation of the saved individual and the Holy Spirit, it is not a guarantee and it can be lost once it is gained.

 

[mman]

I would appreciate an answer to this pertinent question from someone who espouses the belief that baptism is required for salvation.

Did this soldier die in a saved or unsaved condition?

Anyone?

According to the scriptures, they would be lost. I do not think Jesus was just kidding when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned", do you?

Appearantly all who think they would be saved do not believe the words of Jesus.

Can a person be saved outside of Christ? How can they be when all spiritual blessings are "In Christ" - Eph 1:3

How does one get into Christ?

 

[J. Jump]

So I guess the thief was lost then, huh?

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, according to you, was the thief on the cross was unsaved? Why or why not?

 

[mman]

This really shows your inability to change your views and see Scripture in the proper context. I know the words are the same words used. That's my whole point. I know the words spoken of have the same meaning. But the context of the passage is what is key, becuase it is the context that will tell you what is being spoken of in regard to salvation.

You're trying really hard not to understand what I'm talking about and you're doing a great job of it. Context tells you what the salvation is talking about whether it's the salvation of the spirit which is eternal, not of works, a work of Jesus/Holy Spirit/God, without fear of loss, or the salvation of the soul which is temporal, based on cooperation of the saved individual and the Holy Spirit, it is not a guarantee and it can be lost once it is gained.

Quite frankly, I'm having trouble understanding just what you do believe.

Here's what I've figured out so far. You think that obedience has nothing to do with eternal salvation (Heb 5:9 refutes this).

You think that baptism does not save the spirit, (it may save something, but not the spirit, it only saves the soul????)

This I do know, the scripture does not contradict itelf. I have already shown how the passages are in harmony, just the way they are stated.

Baptism puts us INTO Christ.

Do you believe that one can be saved eternally outside of Christ?

 

[J. Jump]

mman so was the thief saved for not?

 

[mman]

So, according to you, was the thief on the cross was unsaved? Why or why not?

We've already been over this, but if you choose, I'll go over it again.

The thief was saved. No doubt about it.

After Jesus death, burial and resurrection, is when he gave the command, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned." - Mark 16:15-16

Of course the thief was not bound to this, he was already dead.

I'm sure you are familiar with Heb 9:15-17, "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive."

Therefore only after the death of Jesus, his burial and resurrection, could the Gospel be preached (I Cor 15:1-4). Only then would baptism in the name of Jesus or by his authority make sense, because it is a death, burial and resurrection.

Lets read Rom 6:3-6, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

 

[J. Jump]

Typical inconsistency. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says there are two ways to eternal salvation one for before Jesus and one for one after Jesus.

Tell me what the purpose is between having the two different gospels?

Also could you tell me why John the Baptist was baptizing folks if it wasn't necessary?

 

[mman]

Typical inconsistency. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says there are two ways to eternal salvation one for before Jesus and one for one after Jesus.

Tell me what the purpose is between having the two different gospels?

Also could you tell me why John the Baptist was baptizing folks if it wasn't necessary?

There's one gospel. The gospel is the GOOD NEWS about the death burial and resurrection of Jesus according to I Cor 15:1-4. It's impossible to obey the gospel before there was a gospel.

John was preparing the way, making ready for the church/kingdom. John's baptism was for the remission of sins, however was clearly different than baptism in the name of Jesus (Acts 19:4-5).

So, where's the tabernacle that you worship in? Are you killing goats there in Texas? Do the words Old covenant and New Covenant mean anything to you? We are no longer under the Old Covenant. That was nailed to the cross. Mankind is no longer under the tutor that brought us to Christ.

 

[mman]

Typical inconsistency.

No saved means this here and the same word means something else there and it just depends on what I want it to mean.

OK fine..........

So, how does one get INTO Christ??? Why aren't you answering this question? Do you not like the scriptures that tell us specifically how it is done?

 

[J. Jump]

mman how can their be one gospel that includes baptism and one gospel that doesn't? Then you say the gospel doesn't even include baptism at all.

The gospel is the GOOD NEWS about the death burial and resurrection of Jesus according to I Cor 15:1-4.

So let me ask you this how then were the people in the OT saved? And can you show me Scripture where is says that OT folks will be saved in a different manner and under a different gospel than we are held to today?

 

[J. Jump]

Therefore only after the death of Jesus, his burial and resurrection, could the Gospel be preached

That's amazing that you would say that when that is clearly not what Scripture says.

Mark 1:14 - Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:15 - and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Luke 3:18 - So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.

Luke 7:22 - And He answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.

Luke 9:6 - Departing, they began going throughout the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

Luke 20:1 - On one of the days while He was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted Him,

 

[carpro]

Next to him is a person who has been fatally wounded. A person is on his way to talk to him about Jesus. He would have believed if he had only heard the word. Sadly he dies before he hears the gospel. Is he lost?

These made up examples are all CHAFF and unprofitable.

What does the bible say?

It is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18).

Can one be saved outside of Christ. What determines how we get INTO Christ? My feelings or what God has said. According to the scriptures, how does one get INTO Christ. For you to answer that, I'm sure you would be forced to go to passages that don't specifically address this and ignore the ones that do.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned".

Did He say, "He that believeth and would be baptized if they had an opportunity shall be saved...."?

Did He say, "He that believeth shall be saved"?

If Jesus really meant, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and went ahead and saved people who had not been baptized, wouldn't that make Him a liar?

I know that people are required to come up with elaborate theories to explain away the clear teaching concerning baptism, in order to maintain their current belief system. If you want to understand the purpose of baptism, then look at the passages dealing with it.

What are the obvious conclusions of these simple passages:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 6:3-7 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Gal 3:26-27 "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

I Pet 3:20-21, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Eph 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"

Col 2:12 "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:35-36 "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Acts 16:30-34 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

One is never in a difficult spot when he speaks where the bible speaks and is silent where the bible is silent.

The difficult spot comes when you ignore passages that don't fit what you believe.

Does that mean you believe he died unsaved?

It's a simple question. Long rambling statements were unneeded.

 

[carpro]

Typical inconsistency. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says there are two ways to eternal salvation one for before Jesus and one for one after Jesus.

Tell me what the purpose is between having the two different gospels?

Also could you tell me why John the Baptist was baptizing folks if it wasn't necessary?

Jews were frequently baptized as a symbolic sign of repentence just as we are baptized today as a symbol of the death and resurrection of Christ as well as to follow Christ's example.

I wonder why Christ insisted on being baptized. He had nothing to repent for.