1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured So what is 'preservation'?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Wally, Mar 23, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 5 of 8
  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    2,128
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What do you think the translators of the KJV thought?
     
    #81 Martin Marprelate, Mar 25, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Each person can feel free to pick and choose whichever Greek text and English text they see as being the best!
     
    #82 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Wally

    Wally Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    14
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Quote from the Pharaoh of Egypt when asked: ‘Were you chasing the Jews out of Egypt because that is what God wanted you to do?’... “What!? NO! I was chasing them because I hate them and wanted to kill them!” So, no, pardon me if I don’t rely on the humility (false or otherwise) or understanding of man.

    I'm really asking you what you believe. Not that you can't believe what someone told you. I'm just asking that if you believe them, please clarify if that means all English translations are God's preserved Word.
     
    #83 Wally, Mar 25, 2020
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God did not inspire the 1611 translators to always make the correct and right translation decisions, as it has errors and mistakes in it!
     
    #84 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
  5. Wally

    Wally Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    14
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL, I give up. Hey thanks for participating anyway.
     
    #85 Wally, Mar 25, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God did not directly keep all of the various copies from having any mistakes!
     
    #86 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
  7. Wally

    Wally Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    14
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Okay, this is to everyone on this thread, reading or posting...

    This is exactly what I have been seeing on this board in relation to Bible Translation topics. No one seems to want to defend their own position, only to attack the KJV. Look at the predominant conversations on a thread that is simply asking the question ‘what is preservation?’. The only conversations anywhere near that are the ones I am TRYING to have with people who keep TRYING to change it to how wrong the KJV is.

    Why is it so difficult to articulate an answer to a simple question?

    What/where/in what form, is God's Word preserved? Answer any or all of the what/where/in what form. I keep getting, 'well kind of here', 'in sort of this', 'maybe look here', mostly…'well it for sure isn't in the KJV!'. I had one person describe an existential sort of thing but either decided to not reply to a request for clarification or didn’t see it. One person insisted I was wrong for asking only non-KJVO but, come on! It’s pretty obvious what their answer is to what/where in what form….the KJV!! Then there is yeshua1, sorry, no offense, but having this conversation with you is like trying to nail Jell-o to the wall. I’m trying desperately not to misrepresent anyone’s understanding of preservation but no one will give me a straight answer or clarification.

    Where is God’s preserved Word!?
     
    #87 Wally, Mar 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just curious, as I know that you do not prefer the CT, but why not use Bzt/MT to translate off from?
     
    #88 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, in each legit translation! As one can get a valid translation off any of the Greek texts that can be used!
     
    #89 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,633
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Um, I've been addressing the OP. I've carefully answered it with the following unanswered points:

    1. God's Word is forever settled in Heaven.
    2. On earth, God preserves His Word through providence--in other words through human actions that He guides. I know of no earthly miracles recorded showing forth the preservation of God's Word. Can you tell me of one?
    3. We humans are responsible for the preservation of God's Word on earth.
    4. As a believer, I am working to be God's servant in the earthly preservation of Scripture.

    Which of these points is not answering the OP? Just for the record, here is your OP again:

    The Japanese Lifeline NT which I was privileged to work on for 18 years is scheduled to be handed out at the Tokyo Olympics (next year, it now appears) by two different ministries. So I am doing my best as a believer for the preservation of Scripture as lead by the Lord. I hope you are. Do you support Bible translation and printing? More and more KJV defenders are doing so.
     
    #90 John of Japan, Mar 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,633
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The TR is a form of the Byz/MT, and my skopoi (translation goals) mandate translating from it.
     
    #91 John of Japan, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
    • Useful Useful x 1
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is NO 1 only Greek text that must be used, nor only 1 translation that is acceptable!
     
    #92 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Its in all of the various Greek/Hebrew texts, and in the various legit translation made off of them!
     
    #93 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,633
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's in Heaven through a miracle and on earth through God's providence. How many times must I repeat this?

    How in the world do you think I'm ignoring the OP? Please enlighten me. I don't want to be rude, but you have accused me twice now of not obeying the OP. Tell me how I am ignoring it, and I will apologize. It is certainly rude to ignore an OP and sidetrack a thread, but I have not done that.
     
    #94 John of Japan, Mar 25, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You were using a Japanese translation off the Nas before, correct?
     
    #95 Yeshua1, Mar 25, 2020
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,633
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, the most conservative Japanese Bible. The only previous translation from the TR was only the NT, and it was in classical Japanese, very hard to read. Seems like Wally and Dave Gilbert would rejoice that I was involved in getting a TR based translation to the Japanese, but apparently not.
     
    #96 John of Japan, Mar 25, 2020
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. Wally

    Wally Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    14
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I apologize, but I have not seen you put it is as succinctly as the 1-4 that you just now posted.

    I asked you a question on page 1 in an attempt to clarify what you seem to have now more simply put and you went on to a conversation with Dave about the impossibility of miraculous preservation in the written Word. I’m not trying to be a tyrant. When someone else offers their thoughts about what preservation is, others can certainly chime in and disagree, but when you are not answering questions about your own understanding then, yes, I consider it an off topic conversation. I do realize you may have simply not seen it so, again, I apologize for being harsh…this topic has become a bit frustrating and I need to be a little more long suffering with those who are actually participating. Thanks for that.

    Okay, that out of the way, can I ask you…what is your basis for doctrine…what is true? Your 1-4 seems to be indicating it will be given individually. Certainly correct me if I am misunderstanding.
     
    #97 Wally, Mar 25, 2020
  18. Wally

    Wally Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    14
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Salvation is certainly a miracle"..."it is not providential". How is it unlike describing preservation as miracle? Are you saying you 'see' someone being born again? Sorry, still confused.
     
    #98 Wally, Mar 25, 2020
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    2,128
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you don't rely on the humility or understanding of men, I find it rather droll that you're asking me.
    Very well. I have quite strong views on Bible translations and certainly some are better than others. I do have a knowledge of Koine Greek (not Hebrew) and it has led me to the view that no translation is perfect. If there is a perfect version of the Bible, it resides in the original languages. Some translations are better than others. For example I am confident that the NKJV is better than the KJV for a variety of reasons.
    I was saved using the 1987 NIV, but I do not now believe that it is a particularly good translation (though better than its replacement). I am now an elder in a small church in the UK and my Pastor likes to use the 1984 NIV, I do not wish to divide my church, so when I preach, I do so from that version, knowing that if it was good enough to save me, it will be good enough to save others.
    I am also a member of Gideons UK and they also use the NIV 1984, and indeed are changing (much to my chagrin) to the 2011 version. I have serious reservations about 'Gender Neutral' Bibles, but I believe, along with the Puritans, that the Lord is able to draw a straight line with a bent stick. Gideon Bibles are not intended for serious Bible study, but for unbelievers to read, and I believe that the NIV 2011 is well able, if God wills, to save sinners. However, if my Pastor wants to use it in our church, he will have a fight on his hands!
    I hope that perhaps that will explain one or two things.
     
    #99 Martin Marprelate, Mar 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,633
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's a complicated subject.

    Sorry for missing your question.

    Sorry for your frustration, also. But it is a very complicated subject, and many do the Word of God an injustice when they try to simplify it. (Not saying that you are.) I've studied the subject since preparing for our first furlough from Japan in 1985, and am still learning. At that time I came up with a 19 page outline.
    1. God's Word is forever settled in Heaven.
    Ps. 119:89. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

    2. On earth, God preserves His Word through providence--in other words through human actions that He guides. I know of no earthly miracles recorded showing forth the preservation of God's Word. Can you tell me of one?
    a. "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee" (Neh. 9:6).
    b. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col. 1:16-17).
    c. One of God's names is "Preserver" (2 Sam 22:3, Job 7:20).

    3. We humans are responsible for the preservation of God's Word on earth.
    In the OT, the priests were keepers of God's Word, the Law. We are priests in the NT age, so we are to preserve the Word.
    Compare:
    Mal. 2:7. "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts."
    1 Peter 2:5. "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (And other passages.)

    4. As a believer, I am working to be God's servant in the earthly preservation of Scripture.
    Matt. 28:20. "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
    Jer. 50:2. "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not." (And many other passages.)
     
    #100 John of Japan, Mar 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
Page 5 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...