So what is 'preservation'?

[Martin Marprelate]

So is it your contention that God has preserved His Word in 'All' English translations?

What do you think the translators of the KJV thought?

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, I am trying to summarize what God's preserved Word is, to you, based on what you are saying...since you don't seem to want to define it yourself, for some reason.

So God's Word is preserved in any/all of the Greek manuscripts. How a person gets His Word out of it (learning Greek/Hebrew, finding a 'trusted' English translation, etc.) is up to the individual. Is that correct?

Each person can feel free to pick and choose whichever Greek text and English text they see as being the best!

 

[Wally]

What do you think the translators of the KJV thought?

Quote from the Pharaoh of Egypt when asked: ‘Were you chasing the Jews out of Egypt because that is what God wanted you to do?’... “What!? NO! I was chasing them because I hate them and wanted to kill them!” So, no, pardon me if I don’t rely on the humility (false or otherwise) or understanding of man.

I'm really asking you what you believe. Not that you can't believe what someone told you. I'm just asking that if you believe them, please clarify if that means all English translations are God's preserved Word.

 

[Yeshua1]

Respectfully, John, I can have it any way I am persuaded is the correct way, no disrespect intended.
How you read the Scriptures and what you believe about God's act of preserving His word for His people is entirely up to you.

No,
Tell them to pray and ask God's guidance on what manuscripts to use, and how to proceed with the work of translating.

If the work is of God, then you can be sure that He will show them and you.
There will be no mistaking what direction and how fast to do the work.

Never mind, John.
There's plenty of information out there from both sides of the track.

I suggest reviewing what you are convinced is the truth.

First of all, what's the rush?
Are you concerned that God's elect will not have the Gospel preached to them?

They will.

Not one of Christ's precious sheep will be lost, and He is not willing that any of them perish, but that they all come to repentance.
He provides preachers and teachers for that very thing.

With that in mind, I suggest taking the time to do it right, and allow the Lord to guide each step of the process.
In addition, I would hope that you are doing this anyway...

For truly, with Him guiding things, nothing can go wrong.

No, John, I'm not avoiding the question...
It seems that you just don't understand the answer.

I gave you the Scripture...God's works in His saints both to will, and to DO of His good pleasure.
If it is His pleasure for you to translate the Bible, then not only will He provide the means, He will provide the timing.
What, if I may ask, is unclear about that?

I don't see anything unclear about trusting God, by faith, to work through men to achieve His purposes.

God did not inspire the 1611 translators to always make the correct and right translation decisions, as it has errors and mistakes in it!

 

[Wally]

Each person can feel free to pick and choose whichever Greek text and English text they see as being the best!

LOL, I give up. Hey thanks for participating anyway.

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree, John.

Preservation is done by God, through His saints by them preserving copies of His words.
God has not committed the preservation of His words into the hands of men;
He uses men as an extension of His will, to do it.

To me, you are suggesting that God leaves that preservation up to us...
He does not.
He controls it, and believers are used by God as His servants.

Never mind, John.
It seems that you and I are on an entirely different thought process with this.

To you perhaps, but again, I have to disagree.

"Providence" isn't something that God is detached from.
He provides things all the time by "miracle"...
Read the story of George Mueller.

God provides for His saints ( as promised in Matthew 6:24-34 ), everything pertaining to life and godliness ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).
That includes His precious words, and He is not dependent upon unbelievers and scholars to get the job done.

If you understand that God is "sovereign" in all things, then you should understand that He actually does according to His will in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).
He is the one who is motivating His word to be published throughout the world, not men.

But there is also another influence out there who opposes all that is God, and he is plenty willing and able to trouble His people and to sow confusion among them.
Take "textual criticism" for example...
There are far too many organizations out there doing things their own way.

Do you really think God is behind all that translation work?
I don't.

But I do believe that despite the myriad of manuscripts, uncials, codexes, papyrii and other bits floating around out there, His word is among them.
I just happen to trust that I already have them in my hands, and that He has provided them for me.

That is part of what many call "KJVO" ( but not all of it, by a long shot ) is all about...
Not advocating a strict adherence to one old English translation that is hard for some people to read because of tradition...
But the belief that we as God's people actually have His words in the correct manuscripts and by His own hand and that until another, better translation from the right manuscripts actually comes along, we will stick with what we know are God's words in our own language.

We care about every word of God, and we see that much of today's translation work is not done by God's people, but by people who care more about money and not about every word ( to the point that they would tremble at it ).

Why the "trembling"?
Because they are God's words, not man's words.

I wish you well, sir, and I will respectfully withdraw myself from any further involvement in this thread.
It seems that we are both on opposite sides of the fence regarding what Preservatiokeep all of the copies from any mustakes!n actually involves.


May God bless yocopies from having any mistakes over time!u greatly in your personal studies of His word and in your daily life.

God did not directly keep all of the various copies from having any mistakes!

 

[Wally]

Okay, this is to everyone on this thread, reading or posting...

This is exactly what I have been seeing on this board in relation to Bible Translation topics. No one seems to want to defend their own position, only to attack the KJV. Look at the predominant conversations on a thread that is simply asking the question ‘what is preservation?’. The only conversations anywhere near that are the ones I am TRYING to have with people who keep TRYING to change it to how wrong the KJV is.

Why is it so difficult to articulate an answer to a simple question?

What/where/in what form, is God's Word preserved? Answer any or all of the what/where/in what form. I keep getting, 'well kind of here', 'in sort of this', 'maybe look here', mostly…'well it for sure isn't in the KJV!'. I had one person describe an existential sort of thing but either decided to not reply to a request for clarification or didn’t see it. One person insisted I was wrong for asking only non-KJVO but, come on! It’s pretty obvious what their answer is to what/where in what form….the KJV!! Then there is yeshua1, sorry, no offense, but having this conversation with you is like trying to nail Jell-o to the wall. I’m trying desperately not to misrepresent anyone’s understanding of preservation but no one will give me a straight answer or clarification.

Where is God’s preserved Word!?

 

[Yeshua1]

I think you missed my point, which was that preservation is either miraculous or providential. They are not synonyms, but you seem to want them to be.


So in other words, I can't tell them how to get a miracle for the translation of Scriptures. This fits with how the KJV was translated--no miracles, but plenty of hard work.


Your response about Waite was for when I asked for documentation of miraculous preservation. You gave me none, so I conclude that you have no examples of miraculous preservation. I'm sure you would have trotted one out if you did.

I often do. I love the Word of God above all books, and study Bibliology above all subjects. I have about 100 books on the subject.


Forgive me, but "What's the rush" is disobedience to the Great Commission. We are to take the Gospel to everyone on earth. Spurgeon got this. Adoniram Judson got this, and gave his life for the Burmese, protecting his translation of the Holy Bible with his own body while he lay in prison. William Carey labored tirelessly to translate the Bible into over 40 Indian languages. All of them believed in the sovereignty of God--but also in obedience to the Great Commission.

This describes providence, but not miracle.


I asked for an example of a miracle in the preservation of Scripture. You gave none. I misunderstood nothing.

Actually, it was God's will for me to translate the Scripture, and with my Japanese partner (now in Heaven) I took 18 years of my life to do so. The NT will be printed this summer. It will be the first translation into modern Japanese of the TR, and the only such translation now available in Japanese. Thus, I have given many years literally 1000's of hours of my life to the human preservation of Scripture, guided providentially (but not miraculously) by the blessed Holy Spirit.

If you are an advocate of the TR, and or the KJV, it seems to me that you should have a deep desire to get the Word of God into every language on earth.

Just curious, as I know that you do not prefer the CT, but why not use Bzt/MT to translate off from?

 

[Yeshua1]

So is it your contention that God has preserved His Word in 'All' English translations?

Yes, in each legit translation! As one can get a valid translation off any of the Greek texts that can be used!

 

[John of Japan]

No problem Dave. It is apparent that John isn't particularly interested in anything other than what he would prefer to address. I suppose a live topic is easier to have side conversation in than an old topic or creating a new one.

Um, I've been addressing the OP. I've carefully answered it with the following unanswered points:

1. God's Word is forever settled in Heaven.
2. On earth, God preserves His Word through providence--in other words through human actions that He guides. I know of no earthly miracles recorded showing forth the preservation of God's Word. Can you tell me of one?
3. We humans are responsible for the preservation of God's Word on earth.
4. As a believer, I am working to be God's servant in the earthly preservation of Scripture.

Which of these points is not answering the OP? Just for the record, here is your OP again:

It seems like anti-KJVO is pervasive on this board. I'm not condemning any one on either side as anti-KJVO can have as many flavors as KJVO. Though it does make me wonder what, specifically those who do stand against it, feel God's promise to preserve His Word looks like today...? You know, where is it, what is it, sort of thing.

The Japanese Lifeline NT which I was privileged to work on for 18 years is scheduled to be handed out at the Tokyo Olympics (next year, it now appears) by two different ministries. So I am doing my best as a believer for the preservation of Scripture as lead by the Lord. I hope you are. Do you support Bible translation and printing? More and more KJV defenders are doing so.

 

[John of Japan]

Just curious, as I know that you do not prefer the CT, but why not use Bzt/MT to translate off from?

The TR is a form of the Byz/MT, and my skopoi (translation goals) mandate translating from it.

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL, I give up. Hey thanks for participating anyway.

There is NO 1 only Greek text that must be used, nor only 1 translation that is acceptable!

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay, this is to everyone on this thread, reading or posting...

This is exactly what I have been seeing on this board in relation to Bible Translation topics. No one seems to want to defend their own position, only to attack the KJV. Look at the predominant conversations on a thread that is simply asking the question ‘what is preservation?’. The only conversations anywhere near that are the ones I am TRYING to have with people who keep TRYING to change it to how wrong the KJV is.

Why is it so difficult to articulate an answer to a simple question?

What/where/in what form, is God's Word preserved? Answer any or all of the what/where/in what form. I keep getting, 'well kind of here', 'in sort of this', 'maybe look here', mostly…'well it for sure isn't in the KJV!'. I had one person describe an existential sort of thing but either decided to not reply to a request for clarification or didn’t see it. One person insisted I was wrong for asking only non-KJVO but, come on! It’s pretty obvious what their answer is to what/where in what form….the KJV!! Then there is yeshua1, sorry, no offense, but having this conversation with you is like trying to nail Jell-o to the wall. I’m trying desperately not to misrepresent anyone’s understanding of preservation but no one will give me a straight answer or clarification.

Where is God’s preserved Word!?

Its in all of the various Greek/Hebrew texts, and in the various legit translation made off of them!

 

[John of Japan]

Okay, this is to everyone on this thread, reading or posting...

This is exactly what I have been seeing on this board in relation to Bible Translation topics. No one seems to want to defend their own position, only to attack the KJV. Look at the predominant conversations on a thread that is simply asking the question ‘what is preservation?’. The only conversations anywhere near that are the ones I am TRYING to have with people who keep TRYING to change it to how wrong the KJV is.

Why is it so difficult to articulate an answer to a simple question?

What/where/in what form, is God's Word preserved? Answer any or all of the what/where/in what form. I keep getting, 'well kind of here', 'in sort of this', 'maybe look here', mostly…'well it for sure isn't in the KJV!'. I had one person describe an existential sort of thing but either decided to not reply to a request for clarification or didn’t see it. One person insisted I was wrong for asking only non-KJVO but, come on! It’s pretty obvious what their answer is to what/where in what form….the KJV!! Then there is yeshua1, sorry, no offense, but having this conversation with you is like trying to nail Jell-o to the wall. I’m trying desperately not to misrepresent anyone’s understanding of preservation but no one will give me a straight answer or clarification.

Where is God’s preserved Word!?

It's in Heaven through a miracle and on earth through God's providence. How many times must I repeat this?

How in the world do you think I'm ignoring the OP? Please enlighten me. I don't want to be rude, but you have accused me twice now of not obeying the OP. Tell me how I am ignoring it, and I will apologize. It is certainly rude to ignore an OP and sidetrack a thread, but I have not done that.

 

[Yeshua1]

The TR is a form of the Byz/MT, and my skopoi (translation goals) mandate translating from it.

You were using a Japanese translation off the Nas before, correct?

 

[John of Japan]

You were using a Japanese translation off the Nas before, correct?

Yes, the most conservative Japanese Bible. The only previous translation from the TR was only the NT, and it was in classical Japanese, very hard to read. Seems like Wally and Dave Gilbert would rejoice that I was involved in getting a TR based translation to the Japanese, but apparently not.

 

[Wally]

Um, I've been addressing the OP. I've carefully answered it with the following unanswered points:

1. God's Word is forever settled in Heaven.
2. On earth, God preserves His Word through providence--in other words through human actions that He guides. I know of no earthly miracles recorded showing forth the preservation of God's Word. Can you tell me of one?
3. We humans are responsible for the preservation of God's Word on earth.
4. As a believer, I am working to be God's servant in the earthly preservation of Scripture.

Which of these points is not answering the OP? Just for the record, here is your OP again:



The Japanese Lifeline NT which I was privileged to work on for 18 years is scheduled to be handed out at the Tokyo Olympics (next year, it now appears) by two different ministries. So I am doing my best as a believer for the preservation of Scripture as lead by the Lord. I hope you are. Do you support Bible translation and printing? More and more KJV defenders are doing so.

I apologize, but I have not seen you put it is as succinctly as the 1-4 that you just now posted.

I asked you a question on page 1 in an attempt to clarify what you seem to have now more simply put and you went on to a conversation with Dave about the impossibility of miraculous preservation in the written Word. I’m not trying to be a tyrant. When someone else offers their thoughts about what preservation is, others can certainly chime in and disagree, but when you are not answering questions about your own understanding then, yes, I consider it an off topic conversation. I do realize you may have simply not seen it so, again, I apologize for being harsh…this topic has become a bit frustrating and I need to be a little more long suffering with those who are actually participating. Thanks for that.

Okay, that out of the way, can I ask you…what is your basis for doctrine…what is true? Your 1-4 seems to be indicating it will be given individually. Certainly correct me if I am misunderstanding.

 

[Wally]

I apologize if it is off topic. I thought it was squarely on topic. We are defining preservation, are we not? I am making the point that as believers and priests, we are responsible fo the human preservation of Scripture. I am also defining God's earthly (not the Heavenly) preservation as being providential and not miraculous.

Let me elaborate, then. Miracles in the Bible were given usually for a sign, or in order to persuade those who observed. They were observable because someone always observed them, or otherwise how would we even know about them? The Greek word seimeion has the core meaning of "sign," and is usually used to indicate a miracle, and is even translated as "miracle" sometimes. "Signs" or miracles are to prove something. "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen" (Mark 16:20).

Good illustration. Salvation is certainly a miracle, wherein one is born again and changed in nature. However, it is not providential, though God's providence is always in action leading up to a person's salvation. You see, a miracle is an event (thus the term "observable"), but the providence of God is a process.

Consider Rom. 8:28--"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." The Greek verb "work" is what we call a present active indicative form. The verbal aspect (how the action takes place) of this form is "imperfective," meaning it represents a continuing process. God's providence is therefore not a single event, but a process.

"Salvation is certainly a miracle"..."it is not providential". How is it unlike describing preservation as miracle? Are you saying you 'see' someone being born again? Sorry, still confused.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Quote from the Pharaoh of Egypt when asked: ‘Were you chasing the Jews out of Egypt because that is what God wanted you to do?’... “What!? NO! I was chasing them because I hate them and wanted to kill them!” So, no, pardon me if I don’t rely on the humility (false or otherwise) or understanding of man.

If you don't rely on the humility or understanding of men, I find it rather droll that you're asking me.

I'm really asking you what you believe. Not that you can't believe what someone told you. I'm just asking that if you believe them, please clarify if that means all English translations are God's preserved Word.

Very well. I have quite strong views on Bible translations and certainly some are better than others. I do have a knowledge of Koine Greek (not Hebrew) and it has led me to the view that no translation is perfect. If there is a perfect version of the Bible, it resides in the original languages. Some translations are better than others. For example I am confident that the NKJV is better than the KJV for a variety of reasons.
I was saved using the 1987 NIV, but I do not now believe that it is a particularly good translation (though better than its replacement). I am now an elder in a small church in the UK and my Pastor likes to use the 1984 NIV, I do not wish to divide my church, so when I preach, I do so from that version, knowing that if it was good enough to save me, it will be good enough to save others.
I am also a member of Gideons UK and they also use the NIV 1984, and indeed are changing (much to my chagrin) to the 2011 version. I have serious reservations about 'Gender Neutral' Bibles, but I believe, along with the Puritans, that the Lord is able to draw a straight line with a bent stick. Gideon Bibles are not intended for serious Bible study, but for unbelievers to read, and I believe that the NIV 2011 is well able, if God wills, to save sinners. However, if my Pastor wants to use it in our church, he will have a fight on his hands!
I hope that perhaps that will explain one or two things.

 

[John of Japan]

I apologize, but I have not seen you put it is as succinctly as the 1-4 that you just now posted.

It's a complicated subject.

I asked you a question on page 1 in an attempt to clarify what you seem to have now more simply put and you went on to a conversation with Dave about the impossibility of miraculous preservation in the written Word. I’m not trying to be a tyrant. When someone else offers their thoughts about what preservation is, others can certainly chime in and disagree, but when you are not answering questions about your own understanding then, yes, I consider it an off topic conversation. I do realize you may have simply not seen it so, again, I apologize for being harsh…this topic has become a bit frustrating and I need to be a little more long suffering with those who are actually participating. Thanks for that.

Sorry for missing your question.

Sorry for your frustration, also. But it is a very complicated subject, and many do the Word of God an injustice when they try to simplify it. (Not saying that you are.) I've studied the subject since preparing for our first furlough from Japan in 1985, and am still learning. At that time I came up with a 19 page outline.

Okay, that out of the way, can I ask you…what is your basis for doctrine…what is true? Your 1-4 seems to be indicating it will be given individually. Certainly correct me if I am misunderstanding.

1. God's Word is forever settled in Heaven.
Ps. 119:89. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

2. On earth, God preserves His Word through providence--in other words through human actions that He guides. I know of no earthly miracles recorded showing forth the preservation of God's Word. Can you tell me of one?
a. "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee" (Neh. 9:6).
b. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col. 1:16-17).
c. One of God's names is "Preserver" (2 Sam 22:3, Job 7:20).

3. We humans are responsible for the preservation of God's Word on earth.
In the OT, the priests were keepers of God's Word, the Law. We are priests in the NT age, so we are to preserve the Word.
Compare:
Mal. 2:7. "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts."
1 Peter 2:5. "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (And other passages.)

4. As a believer, I am working to be God's servant in the earthly preservation of Scripture.
Matt. 28:20. "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
Jer. 50:2. "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not." (And many other passages.)