So what is 'preservation'?

[Wally]

No, just saying that we do not have the Originals remaining, so any of those Greek texts are close enough to be the word of God to us for today in the Koine greek, and any English translation done off them would be fine!

So what you are saying by 'close enough' is that the differences are not significant. Hypothetical example: My dog jumped the fence vs. my dog 'joe' jumped over the fence. That doesn't change anything so if I picked one of those and decided that was the 'true' version, being wrong wouldn't 'hurt' anything. Is that approximately what you are saying?

I'm not sure I agree with that, but that isn't a pre-requisite for responses .

It seems to me that there are theological differences that come from these differences. If not based on them, at least strengthened by them.

 

[Yeshua1]

So what you are saying by 'close enough' is that the differences are not significant. Hypothetical example: My dog jumped the fence vs. my dog 'joe' jumped over the fence. That doesn't change anything so if I picked one of those and decided that was the 'true' version, being wrong wouldn't 'hurt' anything. Is that approximately what you are saying?

I'm not sure I agree with that, but that isn't a pre-requisite for responses .

It seems to me that there are theological differences that come from these differences. If not based on them, at least strengthened by them.

Its more like translating that we are saved by Lord Jesus, By Jesus Christ, or by Jesus the Lord same Person all 3 ways!

 

[Wally]

Its more like translating that we are saved by Lord Jesus, By Jesus Christ, or by Jesus the Lord same Person all 3 ways!

Fair enough. We can always agree to disagree with the significance of the differences.

Actually I guess I would have a hard time agreeing or disagreeing since I don't read Greek or Hebrew. Do I have to learn the ancient languages in order to 'know' anything? There are literally thousands. Would I need to read them all to know that the differences aren't significant?

I know you said that the English translations that are based on the original are valid as well, but that can't possibly be inclusive of ALL translations. There are some really bad ones. How/where would I draw that line if I can't read the texts that they are based on?

 

[John of Japan]

I follow you completely on the difference between the two, "providential" and "miraculous".
To me, this is where faith that God will preserve it miraculously, comes in.

Let me add to my previous post by saying, all of the miracles of the Bible were observable. If a manuscript or a translation were to be preserved miraculously, the miracle would be observed. Yet I have never heard of, read of, or heard anyone discuss a case of miraculous preservation.

On the other hand, providence takes time, being a process by its very definition. This fits the process of earthly preservation.

 

[Yeshua1]

So you prefer the AV in the English language but believe that God 'preserved' His Word in the Textus Receptus and Ben Chayyim. Curious, do you speak/read ancient Greek/Hebrew or do you rely on AV to come 'close enough' for your studies...or how do you reconcile differences in texts, etc.?

There is NO agreed upon TR/nor which version of the Kjv accepted as being the correct"perfect" one though!

 

[Yeshua1]

Fair enough. We can always agree to disagree with the significance of the differences.

Actually I guess I would have a hard time agreeing or disagreeing since I don't read Greek or Hebrew. Do I have to learn the ancient languages in order to 'know' anything? There are literally thousands. Would I need to read them all to know that the differences aren't significant?

I know you said that the English translations that are based on the original are valid as well, but that can't possibly be inclusive of ALL translations. There are some really bad ones. How/where would I draw that line if I can't read the texts that they are based on?

th
Checkthe translator teams viewpoints in regards to the scriptures, as looking for holding to Verbal plenary inspiration of the Originals, and holding to the Fundamentals of the faith!

 

[Wally]

th
Checkthe translator teams viewpoints in regards to the scriptures, as looking for holding to Verbal plenary inspiration of the Originals, and holding to the Fundamentals of the faith!

ummmm...what now?

 

[Dave G]

Practically speaking, how would the miracle of preservation occur?

Providentially, with God using men to preserve His words.

What should I teach my students?

Teach them the Scriptures.
I believe I gave some in a prior post...

God preserves His word for each generation.

I've read quite a bit on the subject of textual criticism, and no book I've read, including from the KJVO side, has claimed a miracle in the preservation of the manuscripts.

DA Waite's book doesn't have anything to say about it?
I was under the impression that it did.

Perhaps I'm wrong and my reading of the Scriptures alone is where I get the support for this.

Certainly no such miracle is promised in the Bible for human preservation

Psalms 12:6-7.

Again, if I am aiming at a perfect translation, how do I get the miracle?

Trust the Lord to show you, John.
He is, after all, a miracle worker.

Plus, He is pleased to work through His saints ( Philippians 2:13 ).

Let me add to my previous post by saying, all of the miracles of the Bible were observable.

I agree.

If a manuscript or a translation were to be preserved miraculously, the miracle would be observed.

They have been preserved down through the ages, and I believe miraculously and observably.

Whereas the writings of men are often lost to time, God's word has always stood the test of time by being preserved through His saints and through other means.

On the other hand, providence takes time, being a process by its very definition. This fits the process of earthly preservation.

Again, I seem to differ with you on what exactly preservation is.
To me, God can and does preserve His words for His people to take comfort in and to study.

Men ultimately being trustworthy ( Psalms 118:8, Psalms 146:3 ), it takes the power of God to influence men to keep His words intact.
Just like the Lord withheld Abimelech from sinning in Genesis 20:6, and just like He will put it in the hearts of 10 kings to fulfill His will and to give their power to the "beast" in Revelation 17:17, the Lord can and does use even unbelievers to do His will.

That, good sir, is the miracle.

 

[Conan]

Look at the marginal note at verse 7 on Psalm 12:6-7. Heb. him, i. euery one of them.

The Holy Bible : a facsimile in a reduced size of the Authorized version published in the year 1611 : Pollard, Alfred W. (Alfred William), 1859-1944 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Psalms 12:6-7 - A Great Word Preservation Passage - Or Is It?

 

[Dave G]

Men ultimately being trustworthy

Should have said "untrustworthy", there.

 

[MartyF]

It seems like anti-KJVO is pervasive on this board. I'm not condemning any one on either side as anti-KJVO can have as many flavors as KJVO. Though it does make me wonder what, specifically those who do stand against it, feel God's promise to preserve His Word looks like today...? You know, where is it, what is it, sort of thing.

Thanks!

What Bible passage are you referring to?

 

[Wally]

What Bible passage are you referring to?

For which?

 

[John of Japan]

Providentially, with God using men to preserve His words.

You can't have it both ways. Either it is a miracle or it is providential. These are two different ways in which God works. God does not work "providentially through a miracle."

Romans 8:28 is not referring to a miracle.

Teach them the Scriptures.

I believe I gave some in a prior post...

God preserves His word for each generation.

You are missing my point and not answering my question. I'll try to be more clear--or maybe just blunt.

If God preserves His Word through a miracle, what shall I tell my students about how that miracle occurs? I teach "Beginning Greek" and "Bible Translation Theory and Practice" right now. Can I tell them, "Forget all the hard work of translation for many years, God will give you a translation by a miracle"?

DA Waite's book doesn't have anything to say about it?

I was under the impression that it did.

Which book by Waite? He's written a bunch of them.

Perhaps I'm wrong and my reading of the Scriptures alone is where I get the support for this.

Psalms 12:6-7.

Well, of course I believe this passage. How does this passage help me as a Bible translator, though? Let's get practical. Let's say I am translating John's gospel into Labu, a PNG language with not a single verse of Scripture, but believers who want to help. It would be great if I didn't have to take ten years to translate the NT. How can I get a miracle and get that Bible to them right away?

Trust the Lord to show you, John.

He is, after all, a miracle worker.

Plus, He is pleased to work through His saints ( Philippians 2:13 ).

This is not an answer. You are avoiding the question.

God working through His saints is what I call human preservation. God has committed the earthly preservation of Scripture into the hands of His saints, it is true. We are the priests of the church age, and in the Jewish economy God committed the keeping of the law into the hands of the priests of Israel. Likewise, we saints are to preserve the Word of God. We do that through Bible translation, reading, studying, teaching, memorizing, printing, etc.

They have been preserved down through the ages, and I believe miraculously and observably.

Please give me an example from church history of miraculous preservation of the Scriptures (as opposed to providential preservation). Otherwise you are avoiding the question. If a miracle of preservation is observable, then someone observed it. Who? Jerome? No. Ulphilas? No. Erasmus? No. Luther? No, William Carey? No.

So who, and when?

Whereas the writings of men are often lost to time, God's word has always stood the test of time by being preserved through His saints and through other means.

Again, I seem to differ with you on what exactly preservation is.

To me, God can and does preserve His words for His people to take comfort in and to study.

I can agree with all of this.

Men ultimately being trustworthy ( Psalms 118:8, Psalms 146:3 ), it takes the power of God to influence men to keep His words intact.

Just like the Lord withheld Abimelech from sinning in Genesis 20:6, and just like He will put it in the hearts of 10 kings to fulfill His will and to give their power to the "beast" in Revelation 17:17, the Lord can and does use even unbelievers to do His will.

That, good sir, is the miracle.

I think at this point you need to define "miracle." You appear to be equating "miracle" and "providence" as synonyms, and they most certainly are not.

 

[Wally]

You can't have it both ways. Either it is a miracle or it is providential. These are two different ways in which God works. God does not work "providentially through a miracle."

Romans 8:28 is not referring to a miracle.


You are missing my point and not answering my question. I'll try to be more clear--or maybe just blunt.

If God preserves His Word through a miracle, what shall I tell my students about how that miracle occurs? I teach "Beginning Greek" and "Bible Translation Theroy and Practice" right now. Can I tell them, "Forget all the hard work of translation for many years, God will give you a translation by a miracle"?



Which book by Waite? He's written a bunch of them.


Perhaps I'm wrong and my reading of the Scriptures alone is where I get the support for this.

Psalms 12:6-7.


This is not an answer. You are avoiding the question.

God working through His saints is what I call human preservation. God has committed the earthly preservation of Scripture into the hands of His saints, it is true. We are the priests of the church age, and in the Jewish economy God committed the keeping of the law into the hands of the priests of Israel. Likewise, we saints are to preserve the Word of God. We do that through Bible translation, reading, studying, teaching, memorizing, printing, etc.


Please give me an example from church history of miraculous preservation of the Scriptures (as opposed to providential preservation). Otherwise you are avoiding the question. If a miracle of preservation is observable, then someone observed it. Who? Jerome? No. Ulphilas? No. Erasmus? No. Luther? No, William Carey? No.

So who, and when?


I can agree with all of this.


I think at this point you need to define "miracle." You appear to be equating "miracle" and "providence" as synonyms, and they most certainly are not.

I don’t normally interject into conversations, and have avoided this very ‘off topic’ discussion on this thread. However, I am intrigued enough by it that I would like some clarification, as long as it appears you all are going to continue it anyway.

You said “all of the miracles of the Bible were observable”. I don’t really understand that statement. There were many miracles described and I would take your word for it if your comment is entirely in relation to those, but there are also “many” miracles referenced without any specifics as to their observe-ability. On its face I would call your line of reasoning an ‘if/then’ fallacy but maybe you are setting this up for something more in depth…? Possibly waiting for that definition you have been asking for?

Maybe if I bite you will be able to make your point: Most (including myself) would consider personal salvation a miracle. Using that as a reference, it isn’t observable by anything other than the results. That would seem to match a miracle of ‘preservation’…?

 

[MartyF]

For which?

Though it does make me wonder what, specifically those who do stand against it, feel God's promise to preserve His Word looks like today...?

 

[Logos1560]

They have been preserved down through the ages, and I believe miraculously and observably.

You may believe it, but it does not make it true. Your claim is contrary to known, verifiable facts. The fact of many actual variations and differences in the Greek NT manuscripts used in the making of the TR conflicts with your claim. The printed TR editions do not follow word-for-word perfectly the text of any one Greek NT manuscript.

If there are supposedly any 100% absolutely perfect, complete original-language manuscript copies of Scripture, they have not been identified.

It is a known, verifiable fact that the Greek NT manuscript copies used by Erasmus for his edited, printed NT edition of the Textus Receptus were not perfectly nor miraculously copied. Those Greek manuscript copies still exist with actual copying errors indicated by all the changes and revisions that Erasmus and his helpers wrote on them. Erasmus did not even correct all the copying errors in those Greek manuscripts since the later TR editors Stephanus and Beza corrected some more. Erasmus translated from the Latin Vulgate some additions that he wrote on the manuscript copies that he wanted the printer to follow. Erasmus also introduced some conjectures, not found in his manuscripts, into his printed text. Are you unaware of the fact that the Greek manuscripts used by Erasmus for his first two editions did not have some whole verses that were added in later TR editions?

 

[Yeshua1]

ummmm...what now?

I will retranslate!
Check the views of the translation committee in regards to how they viewed the Originals, if they were seen as being Verbal Plenary inspired or not, and if they also held to all of the Fundamentals of the Faith!
Check both yes, and will have a reliable translation!

 

[Yeshua1]

Providentially, with God using men to preserve His words.

Teach them the Scriptures.
I believe I gave some in a prior post...

God preserves His word for each generation.

DA Waite's book doesn't have anything to say about it?
I was under the impression that it did.

Perhaps I'm wrong and my reading of the Scriptures alone is where I get the support for this.

Psalms 12:6-7.

Trust the Lord to show you, John.
He is, after all, a miracle worker.

Plus, He is pleased to work through His saints ( Philippians 2:13 ).

I agree.

They have been preserved down through the ages, and I believe miraculously and observably.

Whereas the writings of men are often lost to time, God's word has always stood the test of time by being preserved through His saints and through other means.

Again, I seem to differ with you on what exactly preservation is.
To me, God can and does preserve His words for His people to take comfort in and to study.

Men ultimately being trustworthy ( Psalms 118:8, Psalms 146:3 ), it takes the power of God to influence men to keep His words intact.
Just like the Lord withheld Abimelech from sinning in Genesis 20:6, and just like He will put it in the hearts of 10 kings to fulfill His will and to give their power to the "beast" in Revelation 17:17, the Lord can and does use even unbelievers to do His will.

That, good sir, is the miracle.

Was God preserving ot before the TR and the Kjv, as in the Vulgate, and Bishop, and Geneva bibles then?

 

[Yeshua1]

You can't have it both ways. Either it is a miracle or it is providential. These are two different ways in which God works. God does not work "providentially through a miracle."

Romans 8:28 is not referring to a miracle.


You are missing my point and not answering my question. I'll try to be more clear--or maybe just blunt.

If God preserves His Word through a miracle, what shall I tell my students about how that miracle occurs? I teach "Beginning Greek" and "Bible Translation Theroy and Practice" right now. Can I tell them, "Forget all the hard work of translation for many years, God will give you a translation by a miracle"?



Which book by Waite? He's written a bunch of them.


Perhaps I'm wrong and my reading of the Scriptures alone is where I get the support for this.

Psalms 12:6-7.


This is not an answer. You are avoiding the question.

God working through His saints is what I call human preservation. God has committed the earthly preservation of Scripture into the hands of His saints, it is true. We are the priests of the church age, and in the Jewish economy God committed the keeping of the law into the hands of the priests of Israel. Likewise, we saints are to preserve the Word of God. We do that through Bible translation, reading, studying, teaching, memorizing, printing, etc.


Please give me an example from church history of miraculous preservation of the Scriptures (as opposed to providential preservation). Otherwise you are avoiding the question. If a miracle of preservation is observable, then someone observed it. Who? Jerome? No. Ulphilas? No. Erasmus? No. Luther? No, William Carey? No.

So who, and when?


I can agree with all of this.


I think at this point you need to define "miracle." You appear to be equating "miracle" and "providence" as synonyms, and they most certainly are not.

Don't KJVO though see the 1611 translators as having the miracle of divine inspiration upon their work, in the process of translating and in finished work?

 

[Yeshua1]

You may believe it, but it does not make it true. Your claim is contrary to known, verifiable facts. The fact of many actual variations and differences in the Greek NT manuscripts used in the making of the TR conflicts with your claim. The printed TR editions do not follow word-for-word perfectly the text of any one Greek NT manuscript.

If there are supposedly any 100% absolutely perfect, complete original-language manuscript copies of Scripture, they have not been identified.

It is a known, verifiable fact that the Greek NT manuscript copies used by Erasmus for his edited, printed NT edition of the Textus Receptus were not perfectly nor miraculously copied. Those Greek manuscript copies still exist with actual copying errors indicated by all the changes and revisions that Erasmus and his helpers wrote on them. Erasmus did not even correct all the copying errors in those Greek manuscripts since the later TR editors Stephanus and Beza corrected some more. Erasmus translated from the Latin Vulgate some additions that he wrote on the manuscript copies that he wanted the printer to follow. Erasmus also introduced some conjectures, not found in his manuscripts, into his printed text. Are you unaware of the fact that the Greek manuscripts used by Erasmus for his first two editions did not have some whole verses that were added in later TR editions?

Does not sound that he was being inspired in same sense Apostles were in writing their books, neither were the 1611 team, as they also were making amendments and additions and using variants in their decision making process!