Featured So what is 'preservation'?

No, was aswereing how to know if your translation would be a reliable one!

 

Yes, but you seemed to be jumping from english translation to back to knowing which Greek text was correct!

 

Pastor Glenn Conjurske, a defender of the KJV and a critic of modern versions but who was not KJV-only, wrote: “All these men have in fact repudiated their own doctrine of preservation from the first day that these King James Only doctrines existed. What they have really been contending for all along is the restoration of the word of God, though they have been so little engaged in thinking as to suppose that they were contending for its preservation” (Olde Paths, Sept., 1995, pp. 198-199).

Since KJV-only advocates in effect are often arguing for claimed perfect restoration or purification in 1611 or 1769, are they entitled to appeal to verses that they claim teach continual perfect preservation?

Conjurske asked: "If the supposed promises of God to preserve his word in perfection secure to us a perfect version in English, why did those same promises fail to secure any such perfect version before the year 1611 [or 1769]?" (Olde Paths, Sept., 1995, p. 193).

 

I apologize if it is off topic. I thought it was squarely on topic. We are defining preservation, are we not? I am making the point that as believers and priests, we are responsible fo the human preservation of Scripture. I am also defining God's earthly (not the Heavenly) preservation as being providential and not miraculous.

Let me elaborate, then. Miracles in the Bible were given usually for a sign, or in order to persuade those who observed. They were observable because someone always observed them, or otherwise how would we even know about them? The Greek word seimeion has the core meaning of "sign," and is usually used to indicate a miracle, and is even translated as "miracle" sometimes. "Signs" or miracles are to prove something. "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen" (Mark 16:20).

Good illustration. Salvation is certainly a miracle, wherein one is born again and changed in nature. However, it is not providential, though God's providence is always in action leading up to a person's salvation. You see, a miracle is an event (thus the term "observable"), but the providence of God is a process.

Consider Rom. 8:28--"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." The Greek verb "work" is what we call a present active indicative form. The verbal aspect (how the action takes place) of this form is "imperfective," meaning it represents a continuing process. God's providence is therefore not a single event, but a process.

 

Were the Vulgate, Bishop, Geneva, Tyndale translation the word of God to us at all, or did God just decide to start 1611?

 

I’m not dodging the question.

Your question has stated that God has promised to preserve his Word. “Word” means a lot of things in the Bible - it can refer to Jesus, God’s plans, etc. By knowing what verse you’re talking about when you refer to “God's promise to preserve His Word” I might actually be able to answer the question.

 

My understanding is that you can trust that the TR/MT/CT/Bzt Greek texts would all be essentially the same as the Originals would be to you to use for study and translation purposes!

 

Respectfully, John, I can have it any way I am persuaded is the correct way, no disrespect intended.
How you read the Scriptures and what you believe about God's act of preserving His word for His people is entirely up to you.

No,
Tell them to pray and ask God's guidance on what manuscripts to use, and how to proceed with the work of translating.

If the work is of God, then you can be sure that He will show them and you.
There will be no mistaking what direction and how fast to do the work.

Never mind, John.
There's plenty of information out there from both sides of the track.

I suggest reviewing what you are convinced is the truth.

First of all, what's the rush?
Are you concerned that God's elect will not have the Gospel preached to them?

They will.

Not one of Christ's precious sheep will be lost, and He is not willing that any of them perish, but that they all come to repentance.
He provides preachers and teachers for that very thing.

With that in mind, I suggest taking the time to do it right, and allow the Lord to guide each step of the process.
In addition, I would hope that you are doing this anyway...

For truly, with Him guiding things, nothing can go wrong.

No, John, I'm not avoiding the question...
It seems that you just don't understand the answer.

I gave you the Scripture...God's works in His saints both to will, and to DO of His good pleasure.
If it is His pleasure for you to translate the Bible, then not only will He provide the means, He will provide the timing.
What, if I may ask, is unclear about that?

I don't see anything unclear about trusting God, by faith, to work through men to achieve His purposes.

 

I disagree, John.

Preservation is done by God, through His saints by them preserving copies of His words.
God has not committed the preservation of His words into the hands of men;
He uses men as an extension of His will, to do it.

To me, you are suggesting that God leaves that preservation up to us...
He does not.
He controls it, and believers are used by God as His servants.

Never mind, John.
It seems that you and I are on an entirely different thought process with this.

To you perhaps, but again, I have to disagree.

"Providence" isn't something that God is detached from.
He provides things all the time by "miracle"...
Read the story of George Mueller.

God provides for His saints ( as promised in Matthew 6:24-34 ), everything pertaining to life and godliness ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).
That includes His precious words, and He is not dependent upon unbelievers and scholars to get the job done.

If you understand that God is "sovereign" in all things, then you should understand that He actually does according to His will in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).
He is the one who is motivating His word to be published throughout the world, not men.

But there is also another influence out there who opposes all that is God, and he is plenty willing and able to trouble His people and to sow confusion among them.
Take "textual criticism" for example...
There are far too many organizations out there doing things their own way.

Do you really think God is behind all that translation work?
I don't.

But I do believe that despite the myriad of manuscripts, uncials, codexes, papyrii and other bits floating around out there, His word is among them.
I just happen to trust that I already have them in my hands, and that He has provided them for me.

That is part of what many call "KJVO" ( but not all of it, by a long shot ) is all about...
Not advocating a strict adherence to one old English translation that is hard for some people to read because of tradition...
But the belief that we as God's people actually have His words in the correct manuscripts and by His own hand and that until another, better translation from the right manuscripts actually comes along, we will stick with what we know are God's words in our own language.

We care about every word of God, and we see that much of today's translation work is not done by God's people, but by people who care more about money and not about every word ( to the point that they would tremble at it ).

Why the "trembling"?
Because they are God's words, not man's words.

I wish you well, sir, and I will respectfully withdraw myself from any further involvement in this thread.
It seems that we are both on opposite sides of the fence regarding what Preservation actually involves.


May God bless you greatly in your personal studies of His word and in your daily life.

 

I think you missed my point, which was that preservation is either miraculous or providential. They are not synonyms, but you seem to want them to be.

So in other words, I can't tell them how to get a miracle for the translation of Scriptures. This fits with how the KJV was translated--no miracles, but plenty of hard work.

Your response about Waite was for when I asked for documentation of miraculous preservation. You gave me none, so I conclude that you have no examples of miraculous preservation. I'm sure you would have trotted one out if you did.

I often do. I love the Word of God above all books, and study Bibliology above all subjects. I have about 100 books on the subject.

Forgive me, but "What's the rush" is disobedience to the Great Commission. We are to take the Gospel to everyone on earth. Spurgeon got this. Adoniram Judson got this, and gave his life for the Burmese, protecting his translation of the Holy Bible with his own body while he lay in prison. William Carey labored tirelessly to translate the Bible into over 40 Indian languages. All of them believed in the sovereignty of God--but also in obedience to the Great Commission.

This describes providence, but not miracle.

I asked for an example of a miracle in the preservation of Scripture. You gave none. I misunderstood nothing.

Actually, it was God's will for me to translate the Scripture, and with my Japanese partner (now in Heaven) I took 18 years of my life to do so. The NT will be printed this summer. It will be the first translation into modern Japanese of the TR, and the only such translation now available in Japanese. Thus, I have given many years literally 1000's of hours of my life to the human preservation of Scripture, guided providentially (but not miraculously) by the blessed Holy Spirit.

If you are an advocate of the TR, and or the KJV, it seems to me that you should have a deep desire to get the Word of God into every language on earth.

 

My apologies, Wally.
I will remove myself from this thread.

My only purpose for being here was as stated in my original post, not to hijack it.

I wish you well, sir.

 

I would tend to agree with the translators of the KJV::
'.....We do not deny, nay, we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English set forth by men of our profession......containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God.'
['From the Translators to the Reader.' Italics in the original]