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Featured Revealed and Concealed Truth.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Apr 12, 2020.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Revealed truth comes from God
    Here is why.
    25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Why?

    The principle that reality is mediated to human consciousness is as true of spiritual realities as natural ones. Just as a person’s perception of a flower is really only his brain’s construction of a biochemical “image” from a sequence of electro-chemical signals, so also his discernment of spiritual truth is mediated to him by the internal faculty of spiritual “sight” – a faculty which he possesses by virtue of his created design, but which has become dysfunctional through the Fall



    A. Eyes to See

    Because of what transpired in Eden, human beings must be enabled to “see what is not seen” and to “hear what is not heard.” When we look at a flower our sense is that we are seeing the flower itself, but really our brains are simply presenting to our consciousness electro-chemical data processed from a broad array of signals that originated with light striking cells on the back of our eyes. We “see” only the things that reflect light within the energy spectrum that these specialized cells are responsive to. Higher and lower energy levels are not detected, not because they don’t exist, but because they exist outside of the range of our perception. In this regard reality is what we perceive it to be; if something is imperceptible to our natural senses, for us it doesn’t exist.

    This truth has crucial spiritual implications: As it is in the natural realm, spiritual realities are “real” for us only when they are perceptible. But our spiritual faculties have become impaired; just as damaged eyes are unable to properly receive and process energy within the visible spectrum, so fallen man cannot properly receive and process the spiritual “data” that is everpresent and constantly presses itself upon his mind and soul. Like Elisha’s servant and Christ’s hearers, we have to be given eyes to see and ears to hear (cf. 2 Kings 6:1-17; John 10:22-27).

    With respect to the mere existence of the divine, the Bible and the human soul are in agreement. Being created in God’s image, people are unable to escape their innate awareness of spiritual realities. This is reflected in mankind’s ubiquitous and irrepressible religiosity. All people are religious, though the way individuals and groups conceive religious “truth” and construct religious frameworks differs greatly. (Even the atheist is religious in that he interacts with and reaches conclusions regarding the notions of deity and spiritual reality.)

    Kit Culver notes
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Apr 12, 2020
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
     
    #2 Iconoclast, Apr 12, 2020
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Paul used scripture to instruct people as we must.

    1cor2:1-5
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Apr 13, 2020
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  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    You mean those who are not born again
     
    #4 Earth Wind and Fire, Apr 13, 2020
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes...it takes a work of GOD...for a person to rightly understand scripture.
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Apr 13, 2020
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  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...which occurs no more than a nanosecond before they understand, right? You Reformed types believe 'regeneration and then faith' happen sooooo close together that they appear to be simultaneous, right? Freewillers believe 'faith and then regeneration' happen sooooo close together that they appear to be simultaneous, right?

    Wow, all this stink over a couple of nanoseconds.
     
    #6 kyredneck, Apr 13, 2020
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Mt 13
     
    #7 kyredneck, Apr 13, 2020
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  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Bingo
     
    #8 Earth Wind and Fire, Apr 13, 2020
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I think it is as heart issue.
     
    #9 Iconoclast, Apr 13, 2020
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Word of God is the source of everything spiritual and faith is the prerequisite of understanding. Scripture speaks of spiritual truths – things that are not discerned intellectually via human wisdom but spiritually and to a greater extent as the believer moves towards a more mature position in Christ. Spiritual truth, these “deeper things of God”, are different from doctrines. Spiritual truths, the things the Spirit leads us into, are not words or speech but the result of these things. It is the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

    Scripture gives us a few examples, probably the best known being the Spirit’s revelation to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

    (2 Corinthians 3; John 16; Isaiah 28; John 4; Matthew 16:16; 1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 4)

    I say that to say this – be careful about people who tell you that God has led them to an interpretation of Scripture as “spiritual truth” or one that links the Spirit to a particular theology or understanding. They often mean well but ultimately rob God in their immaturity. It is easy for one to say God showed them “(fill in the blank) ism” as a spiritual truth and insist it a result of maturity. This is how the Deceiver works to sow discord.

    Those who are mature in Christ know spiritual truth is not doctrine to be accepted but the Spirit’s use of God’s Word in the life of a believer. It does not matter if that person is a Calvinist or a free-will theologian. Spiritual truth is not merely Christian knowledge. I have seen too many people deceived into believing their understanding of Scripture (often Calvinism or SDA) to be spiritual truths. The problem is that they do not seek truth but knowledge and if they are saved they will never mature spiritually. They will always be the theology thumpers decrying all who disagree with their understanding, never understanding why Jesus commanded otherwise.
     
    #10 JonC, Apr 13, 2020
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Seeking the knowledge that only the understanding of God's word can bring, is a good thing, Jon:

    " But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen." ( 2 Peter 3:18 ).

    " For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding." ( Proverbs 2:6 ).
    " The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge." ( Proverbs 18:15 ).

    There is no higher calling for one of God's precious children than to not only seek to know Him, but everything about Him.
    Scripture is a well, and nigh unto bottomless, for it can take a lifetime to plumb its depths.

    Anyone who is saved knows without a doubt that Jesus Christ is truth ( John 14:6 ), and God's word is truth ( John 17:17 ).
    Therefore, there is no reason for that person to be afraid or even slightly intimidated by seeking both the truth and knowledge in the Scriptures.

    So, basically stated, seeking knowledge in the Scriptures IS seeking the truth.
     
    #11 Dave G, Apr 13, 2020
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  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Jesus never commanded people not to seek the truth in His words, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being valiant for every word of God, and for being zealous for sound doctrine.
    God didn't have Paul write the letter to the Galatians because a pure understanding of what God did for them was unimportant...
    Quite the contrary.

    For example, God says in no uncertain terms that anyone who preaches a false gospel is cursed, according to the first chapter.
    That is how seriously the Lord treats those who pervert His Gospel of grace.
    Therefore, knowledge of His word would have only made it more difficult for the Galatians to be convinced by the Judaizers that keeping the Law was necessary for their salvation.

    With that in mind, a thorough and complete understanding of the Scriptures leads to several things...

    The ability to determine heresies ( 1 Corinthians 11:19 ).
    The ability to mark and avoid false teachers.
    The ability to discern between good and evil ( Hebrews 5:14 ).
    The ability to watch over younger believers in the faith, and to keep those wolves away from those very young sheep.;)

    Plus, it gives us a very detailed picture of what God has done for us in the process of saving us.
    I agree...

    Satan can use assertive people who state that their ( fill in the blank-ism ) doctrines are biblical and that the Spirit showed them that they are true.
    But he can also use assertive people who state that the truth cannot be known this side of Heaven... and that things that are written in God's word cannot be understood by those that are saved, to trip up believers into falling for that, as well.


    Regardless of disagreements on forums like this, God's people can know the truth, and they can know what sound doctrine is;
    And there is no reason to fear seeking truth and knowledge, as long as it is strictly from His word.:)
     
    #12 Dave G, Apr 13, 2020
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Knowledge is good. Doctrine is good. And spiritual truth is good. I absolutely agree.

    We have God's Word, we seek knowledge, we seek wisdom, and we seek spiritual truth.

    But what some confuse knowledge with spiritual truth. They ignore the face that we cannot know all we may want to know (they ignore the fact we now see through a glass dimly, we know in part, and we lean not on our understanding).

    I do not mean to dismiss knowledge and doctrine. But there seem to be some people who lack spiritual understanding in general.

    As far as knowledge goes - Scripture is sufficient. The Spirit leads us into spiritual truth through our study of Scripture.
     
    #13 JonC, Apr 13, 2020
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with most of your post I originally replied to, if you are stating that we cannot know and understand everything between the covers of God's word, then I have to politely disagree with you.

    Believers in Jesus Christ have the unique privilege of having a book that was written to them and for them, by a God who loves them.
    We can know and understand all that we may want to know about what is revealed to us from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.
    But that may take a long time.

    However, Paul didn't tell Timothy not to study, so that he would be unable to rightly divide the word of truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
    He told him the opposite.
    So, just because we see Christ through a glass darkly ( 1 Corinthians 13:12 ), doesn't mean we cannot ultimately come to a confident and sound understanding of true doctrine.

    Paul told Titus to speak the things that become ( resemble ) sound doctrine ( Titus 2:1 )...
    And you can be sure that they both knew what that was.
     
    #14 Dave G, Apr 13, 2020
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think I see your objection but I probably was not clear enough.

    I believe we can understand Scripture because that is its purpose. It is God revealing Himself to us.

    Where things get dicey is those things that are not actually in God's Word but things we want to know (things people may say are "necessarily contained" or "implied" or "taught" even though those things are not actually in the Bible).

    I can be completely confident in God's Word. That is firm ground. I have other beliefs that I hold as true but am less confident (like historical pre-mil).

    I would be wrong to say that pre-mil is a spiritual truth. The same is true with Calvinism, Arminianism, ect. One may be correct but those are not "spiritual truths" (they are Christian understandings of Scripture).

    We have to know where Scripture ends and our theology begins.

    I think you make a very good point about Scripture being written to Christians with a purpose. Some believe the purpose to be God explaining how he chose the saved (the mind of God). Some believe the purpose to be an explanation if God's will and man's will. But as you aptly point out, it is none of these things. It is God demonstrating His love and His own glory.
     
    #15 JonC, Apr 13, 2020
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I consider it to be truth, and have no problem stating that it is.
    Please define "spiritual truths", versus "Christian understandings of Scripture".

    For example, I hold that not all people who profess Christ, go to church and think they are saved, actually are.
    So any understandings that people who are apostate have, for example, or those teachers who preach and teach a false gospel and consider themselves to be Christians just because they believe the facts about Jesus Christ, are "Christian", doesn't fit with me.

    My theology has changed over the years, as has my doctrine.
    But I can tell you that there is only one true set of doctrines, biblically, and a great number of false ones.
    Generally, believing the words on the page as they are laid out is where true theology ( the understanding of God through His word ) begins.
    For example, SDA's teach and believe many biblical truths...but they deny this:

    " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." ( Revelation 14:11 ).

    " And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." ( Revelation 20:10 ).

    So, to me anyone who argues against what is written, is arguing against the truth, not against my "theology".
     
    #16 Dave G, Apr 13, 2020
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree that anyone who argues against "what is written" is arguing against Truth. They are arguing against God.

    I also will defend historic pre-mil as being true, but I will not elevate that belief to the level of Scripture. I can't because that would be elevating myself to the place of God. I know why I believe it accurate, but I can also discern the difference between the view and the text of Scripture.

    At one time I strongly defended Calvinism (to my discredit on the level of Scripture). We learn from our mistakes, I suppose, and I absolutely have no issue about having held the position. My sin was how I held Calvinism (not as my understanding but on par with God's Word). God has used the experience to teach me, and I try to be as careful as possible to distinguish between knowledge, wisdom and spiritual truth as I strive to know where Scripture ends and my theology begins.
     
    #17 JonC, Apr 13, 2020
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes David,
    It is clear to all believers that we are to grow in grace and knowledge.
    I do not see any verse urging us to entertain carnal philosophical thoughts, to call everything a theory, as if truth is not revealed.
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Apr 14, 2020
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem comes in when people see their philosophies and theories as revealed truth. This makes their view of Scripture by definition subjective. Ellen While can say all day long that God revealed to her spiritual truths.

    Take for example Calvinism. The theology could be correct. BUT it is also dependent on a philosophy of justice and human reasoning of matters of the will (among other things). There could be some who hold Calvinism itself as spiritual truth (the "Ellen Whites" of Christianity), but to do so elevates man above God.

    The fact is spiritual truth is NOT Calvinism, Arminianism, ect. Spiritual truth is what the Spirit reveals to mankind in the Word of God and is spiritual in nature (verses already provided).

    A Christian is no more or less gifted with spiritual truth, no more or less spiritually mature, based on how he or she measures up to Calvinism or Free-Will theology.

    Unfortunately there are some who are spiritually immature and others who are spiritually blind. Only God can open their hearts to spiritual truth. But men are by nature hardened. They do not seek that which is spiritual but strive for human knowledge and that which is their own.
     
    #19 JonC, Apr 14, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To give an example - @Dave Gilbert could be correct about Calvinism. I believe he is wrong, but I am not his judge and am not here to change his mind. Dave is a brother in Christ and I want for him and I to understand one another's positions - not try to change one another.

    As a Calvinist Dave sees things in Scripture a specific way. I have a bit of a benefit in that I was for a long time a Calvinist as well, so I understand his position. I see false charges levied at his theology and understand why they are false charges. My hope would be that Dave would be able to understand my view, NOT that he would come over to my "side" but that he could evaluate my position and give honest feedback.

    Understanding one another prevents people from talking past one another.

    Dave may be more spiritually mature than I. But it is not because he is a Calvinist. Spiritual truth is not along the lines of human knowledge (it is not accepting one theology over another) but it is spiritual truths revealed by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God (through what is written) and is spiritual in nature, having a spiritual effect and realization on the believer.
     
    #20 JonC, Apr 14, 2020
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