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The Dietary Laws
- Thread starter gekko
- Start date
God's Word:
Mark 7:18-1919-- And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
It this true, or is it a lie?
do you not like reading in context?
read over the chapter again. also what bob-ryan said and what the link has said about it.
quote from the link i posted above:
"Now consider this, Peter (Kepha) has never eaten anything common or unclean. Yet this is many years after Yahushua's resurrection and ascension. If Yahushua had declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19 then why does he still hold to the commandment not to do so? And even go a step furthur and reject the voice that told him to do so !?"
hmmm....
read over the chapter again. also what bob-ryan said and what the link has said about it.
quote from the link i posted above:
"Now consider this, Peter (Kepha) has never eaten anything common or unclean. Yet this is many years after Yahushua's resurrection and ascension. If Yahushua had declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19 then why does he still hold to the commandment not to do so? And even go a step furthur and reject the voice that told him to do so !?"
hmmm....
And it was Peter who said in Acts 15, "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (v.10)
The subject of that meeting was whether the Gentile converts must observe the Jewish laws, as some claimed, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses" (v.5). The solution was: "that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well" (v.29).
As for those like you, they said, "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls..." (v.24).
Your words have not "unsettled my soul," for I assure you my mind has long been made up. But that is obviously your purpose on this board, to seek those who may be unsettled and attempt to lay a "yoke" on them (as in v. 10). Therefore you will meet opposition... and that's no yoke!
The subject of that meeting was whether the Gentile converts must observe the Jewish laws, as some claimed, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses" (v.5). The solution was: "that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well" (v.29).
As for those like you, they said, "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls..." (v.24).
Your words have not "unsettled my soul," for I assure you my mind has long been made up. But that is obviously your purpose on this board, to seek those who may be unsettled and attempt to lay a "yoke" on them (as in v. 10). Therefore you will meet opposition... and that's no yoke!
Snitzelhoff
New Member
Again, I've not yet seen any satisfactory answer as to:
Why "all things" in Romans 14 doesn't REALLY mean "all things," but "ceremonially clean meats."
Why "every creature of God" in I Timothy 4:4 doesn't REALLY mean "every creature of God," but, "ceremonially clean creatures of God."
Why "every moving thing that liveth" in Genesis 9 doesn't REALLY mean "every moving thing that liveth," but "ceremonially clean moving things that live."
Why God wasn't REALLY commanding Peter to eat ceremonially unclean animals in Acts 10:13, since that would be sin, according to the we're-still-bound view.
Redefining Scripture doesn't appeal to me, and without changing the words of Scripture, I see no way (despite the pages and pages of materal that Bob posted in the previous thread on this) that we are still bound.
Now, Claudia did make a point with Romans 14 and about I Timothy 4, and it would be dishonest to evade those points, so let's examine them.
Does he mean "Nothing" and "all things," or does he mean, "some things"?
Michael
Why "all things" in Romans 14 doesn't REALLY mean "all things," but "ceremonially clean meats."
Why "every creature of God" in I Timothy 4:4 doesn't REALLY mean "every creature of God," but, "ceremonially clean creatures of God."
Why "every moving thing that liveth" in Genesis 9 doesn't REALLY mean "every moving thing that liveth," but "ceremonially clean moving things that live."
Why God wasn't REALLY commanding Peter to eat ceremonially unclean animals in Acts 10:13, since that would be sin, according to the we're-still-bound view.
Redefining Scripture doesn't appeal to me, and without changing the words of Scripture, I see no way (despite the pages and pages of materal that Bob posted in the previous thread on this) that we are still bound.
Now, Claudia did make a point with Romans 14 and about I Timothy 4, and it would be dishonest to evade those points, so let's examine them.
Yep.
That's because God has given us liberty here. I can't judge you for being a vegetarian. You can't judge me for eating a porkchop (porkchops fall under "all things," which is what the text says, so let's stick with that).
Here you deviate from the text. Paul never mentions idols in those verses. Paul says "nothing is unclean of itself" and "all things indeed are pure." He does not say, "Nothing is made unclean by being sacrificed to idols," or "Things sacrificed to idols indeed are pure."
Does he mean "Nothing" and "all things," or does he mean, "some things"?
That's not what Paul said in this passage, as I established.
Amen.
Let's go back to the text again. Paul never mentions Leviticus 11. He never alludes to it. Instead, Paul says that "every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving."
There's no "if they are among those created to be" in the text. Let's stick with the text, Claudia. Paul says, "every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving." Your interpolation, "if it is among those created to be received with thanksgiving" is lacking.
And God's Word, as we have just seen in Romans, calls all foods pure.
Michael
let me quote again from the link - this time i will quote the whole thing (giving another link at the bottom so as not to break the BB posting rules... i hope):
"Clean and Unclean: Commandments for today!
Knowing that the law of Yahweh is not abolished, here is a short study on why it is wrong to eat unclean animals:
Levi 11:3 (NKJV) `Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves [and] chewing the cud--that you may eat. 4 `Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 5 `the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, [is] unclean to you; 6 `the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, [is] unclean to you; 7 `and the swine , though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, [is] unclean to you. 8 `Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They [are] unclean to you. 9 `These you may eat of all that [are] in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers--that you may eat. 10 `But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which [is] in the water, they [are] an abomination to you. 11 `They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination. 12 `Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales--that [shall] [be] an abomination to you. 13 `And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 14 `the kite, and the falcon after its kind; 15 `every raven after its kind, 16 `the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the sea gull, and the hawk after its kind; 17 `the little owl, the fisher owl, and the screech owl; 18 `the white owl, the jackdaw, and the carrion vulture; 19 `the stork, the heron after its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat. 20 `All flying insects that creep on [all] fours [shall] [be] an abomination to you. 21 `Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on [all] fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. 22 `These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. 23 `But all [other] flying insects which have four feet [shall] [be] an abomination to you.
Yahweh is our Creator. He also created all the animals. Some animals were created to clean the earth and sea. Primarily, these are the animals that Yahweh does not want us to eat. Yahweh marked the animals that we are not to eat. Yahweh says that "Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves [and] chewing the cud--that you may eat." Truly, Yahweh knows best. One animal that Yahweh points out in particular is the swine. Even in those days, swine were often eaten just as they are today. Many would claim that since we have now domesticated the swine and the swine is fed grains and such, that it is a clean food. But the pig still does not chew the cud. Therefore it is unclean according to the word of Yahweh. Also, all shellfish are unclean. Shellfish, shrimp and lobster are all popular foods in seafood restaurants. However, they do not have fins and scales. Therefore they are unclean. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit:
1Cor 6:19 (NKJV) Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit [who] [is] in you, whom you have from Yahweh, and you are not your own?
If the body we have is not our own, but rather given to us by Yahweh, then we must take care of it and not defile it. We must present our bodies as holy and acceptable to Yahweh:
Roma 12:1 (NKJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of Yahweh, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to Yahweh, [which] [is] your reasonable service.
Knowing this, let's consider some other scriptures that speak of the importance of not eating unclean animals. Here is a scripture that has yet to be fulfilled:
Isai 66:16 (NKJV) For by fire and by His sword Yahweh will judge all flesh; And the slain of Yahweh shall be many. "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, [To] [go] to the gardens After an [idol] in the midst, Eating swine's fleshand the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says Yahweh.
Checking the context, we find that it is very clear that this is yet future:
Isai 66:18 (NKJV) "For I [know] their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 "I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: [to] Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, [to] the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 "Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to Yahweh out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says Yahweh, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of Yahweh. 21 "And I will also take some of them for priests [and] Levites," says Yahweh. 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says Yahweh, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass [That] from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says Yahweh.
So, judging by the context we see that the prophecy of Yahweh destroying those who eat swine's flesh is yet future. Why then do so many believe that it is now acceptable to eat unclean animals? Many believe that Yahushua declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19. Let's take a look at the context here..
Mark 7:1 (NKJV) Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash [their] hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.
Note that this is a tradition of the elders and not a commandment from Yahweh. Although it is not evil to eat with washed hands, it is not a commandment from Yahweh either. This is Yahushua's point. He mentions that their priorities are wrong in whom they choose to obey. Continuing on...
4 [When] [they] [come] from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, [like] the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" 6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honors Me with [their] lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.'
It is vain to worship Him with the doctrines and commandments of men.
8 "For laying aside the commandment of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men--the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 9 He said to them, "[All] [too] well you reject the commandment of Yahweh, that you may keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother'; and, `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 "But you say, `If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] Corban"--' (that is, a gift [to] [Yahweh]), 12 "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 "making the word of Yahweh of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do." 14 When He had called all the multitude to [Himself], He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!" 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 "because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, [thus] purifying all foods?"
Other translations end this verse with "[This he said], making all meats clean. (ASV)" But this is not in the majority of greek manuscripts. This is obviously a note added to the book of Mark that someone will have to answer for on judgement day. First of all, it is not a correct statement. Yahushua was not talking about clean / unclean foods but whether or not Yahweh commanded us to eat with washed hands which He clearly did not.
20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
Consider the parallel of Yahushua's saying here in the book of Matthew:
Matt 15:19 (NKJV) "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 "These are [the] [things] which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
Therefore, it is clear that Yahweh's perfect law was not changed here. Many believe that this commandment was abolished in Acts chapter 10. Once again, let's take a close look at the context..
Acts 10:1 (NKJV) There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout [man] and one who feared Yahweh with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to Yahweh always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of Yahweh coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, Master?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before Yahweh. 5 "Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 "He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do." 7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually. 8 So when he had explained all [these] things to them, he sent them to Joppa. 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." 14 But Peter said, "Not so, Master! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."
Now consider this, Peter (Kepha) has never eaten anything common or unclean. Yet this is many years after Yahushua's resurrection and ascension. If Yahushua had declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19 then why does he still hold to the commandment not to do so? And even go a step furthur and reject the voice that told him to do so !? Continuing on...
15 And a voice [spoke] to him again the second time, "What Yahweh has cleansed you must not call common." 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. 17 Now while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant, behold, the men who had been sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate.
Now many would like to stop right here and say that now it is ok to eat unclean animals. But according to the previous verse, Kepha himself didn't even know what the vision meant. How then can we interpret the vision? We must read on..
18 And they called and asked whether Simon, whose surname was Peter, was lodging there. 19 While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you. 20 "Arise therefore, go down and go with them, doubting nothing; for I have sent them." 21 Then Peter went down to the men who had been sent to him from Cornelius, and said, "Yes, I am he whom you seek. For what reason have you come?" 22 And they said, "Cornelius [the] centurion, a just man, one who fears Yahweh and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you." 23 Then he invited them in and lodged [them]. On the next day Peter went away with them, and some brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped [him]. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man." 27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many who had come together. 28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But Yahweh has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
So this vision was not Yahweh trying to show Kepha that it is now okay to eat unclean foods, but rather it was Yahweh showing Kepha and the rest of the disciples that they are to go unto the gentiles too! Yahushua had commanded the disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations.." But they had not done so. So Yahweh sent a vision to Kepha to show that it is not against the commandment of Yahweh to go unto the gentiles. Rather, to the contrary! Continuing on, we see a confirmation of this...
28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But Yahweh has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 "Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. I ask, then, for what reason have you sent for me?" 30 So Cornelius said, "Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 "and said, `Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of Yahweh. 32 `Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here, whose surname is Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he will speak to you.' 33 "So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before Yahweh, to hear all the things commanded you by Yahweh." 34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that Yahweh shows no partiality. 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
We'll stop here but later in the chapter, Yahweh works a miracle when He pours out His spirit unto the gentiles in the presence of the Jews by having them speak in tongues. So by reading the context of this vision, we gain understanding of what it means. Another scripture that some point to to say that Yahweh has changed His mind on his commandment not to eat unclean foods is in the book of 1 Timothy:
1Tim 4:1 (NKJV) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, [and] [commanding] to abstain from foods which Yahweh created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Now if what Paul is speaking of here is the doctrine of abstaining from eating unclean animals then why does he refer to this doctrine as one of the 'doctrines of demons' ? Is it not a doctrine of Yahweh? It is a doctrine of Yahweh, not a doctrine of demons. Continuing on...
4 For every creature of Yahweh [is] good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of Yahweh and prayer.
Some have mistakenly thought that as long as they pray before they eat an unclean animal, that Yahweh cleanses it for them. This is not true. First we must identify what is food. According to Yahweh's word, unclean animals never were, aren't now and never will be "food." Food is something that we eat. And from the beginning, Yahweh seperated clean animals from unclean animals. Even Noah was told to take the unclean animals by pairs but the clean animals in groups of seven! Now let's take a closer look at this scripture. We are told in verse 5 that all the creatures of Yahweh are sanctified by His word. Sanctified means "Set apart". Yahweh set apart which animals are clean and which animals are unclean in His word. Yahweh's creation is to be "received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." What is truth? Yahweh's word. Consider the insight in John 17:
John 17:17 (NKJV) "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
Those who sanctify themselves by the words/doctrines of demons will be destroyed at the last day:
Isaiah 66:17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, [To] [go] to the gardens After an [idol] in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says Yahweh.
Another warning of Isaiah's reads:
Isai 52:11 (NKJV) Depart! Depart! Go out from there, Touch no unclean [thing]; Go out from the midst of her, Be clean, You who bear the vessels of Yahweh.
Paul quotes this verse in 1 Corinthians 10:11 and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18. This I will leave for you to look up. Let it be known that Yahweh desires a clean people. People who live clean, think clean and eat clean so that we are a fit temple for Yahweh's Holy Spirit. "
Referance
"Clean and Unclean: Commandments for today!
Knowing that the law of Yahweh is not abolished, here is a short study on why it is wrong to eat unclean animals:
Levi 11:3 (NKJV) `Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves [and] chewing the cud--that you may eat. 4 `Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 5 `the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, [is] unclean to you; 6 `the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, [is] unclean to you; 7 `and the swine , though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, [is] unclean to you. 8 `Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They [are] unclean to you. 9 `These you may eat of all that [are] in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers--that you may eat. 10 `But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which [is] in the water, they [are] an abomination to you. 11 `They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination. 12 `Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales--that [shall] [be] an abomination to you. 13 `And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 14 `the kite, and the falcon after its kind; 15 `every raven after its kind, 16 `the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the sea gull, and the hawk after its kind; 17 `the little owl, the fisher owl, and the screech owl; 18 `the white owl, the jackdaw, and the carrion vulture; 19 `the stork, the heron after its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat. 20 `All flying insects that creep on [all] fours [shall] [be] an abomination to you. 21 `Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on [all] fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. 22 `These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. 23 `But all [other] flying insects which have four feet [shall] [be] an abomination to you.
Yahweh is our Creator. He also created all the animals. Some animals were created to clean the earth and sea. Primarily, these are the animals that Yahweh does not want us to eat. Yahweh marked the animals that we are not to eat. Yahweh says that "Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves [and] chewing the cud--that you may eat." Truly, Yahweh knows best. One animal that Yahweh points out in particular is the swine. Even in those days, swine were often eaten just as they are today. Many would claim that since we have now domesticated the swine and the swine is fed grains and such, that it is a clean food. But the pig still does not chew the cud. Therefore it is unclean according to the word of Yahweh. Also, all shellfish are unclean. Shellfish, shrimp and lobster are all popular foods in seafood restaurants. However, they do not have fins and scales. Therefore they are unclean. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit:
1Cor 6:19 (NKJV) Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit [who] [is] in you, whom you have from Yahweh, and you are not your own?
If the body we have is not our own, but rather given to us by Yahweh, then we must take care of it and not defile it. We must present our bodies as holy and acceptable to Yahweh:
Roma 12:1 (NKJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of Yahweh, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to Yahweh, [which] [is] your reasonable service.
Knowing this, let's consider some other scriptures that speak of the importance of not eating unclean animals. Here is a scripture that has yet to be fulfilled:
Isai 66:16 (NKJV) For by fire and by His sword Yahweh will judge all flesh; And the slain of Yahweh shall be many. "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, [To] [go] to the gardens After an [idol] in the midst, Eating swine's fleshand the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says Yahweh.
Checking the context, we find that it is very clear that this is yet future:
Isai 66:18 (NKJV) "For I [know] their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 "I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: [to] Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, [to] the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 "Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to Yahweh out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says Yahweh, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of Yahweh. 21 "And I will also take some of them for priests [and] Levites," says Yahweh. 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says Yahweh, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass [That] from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says Yahweh.
So, judging by the context we see that the prophecy of Yahweh destroying those who eat swine's flesh is yet future. Why then do so many believe that it is now acceptable to eat unclean animals? Many believe that Yahushua declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19. Let's take a look at the context here..
Mark 7:1 (NKJV) Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash [their] hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.
Note that this is a tradition of the elders and not a commandment from Yahweh. Although it is not evil to eat with washed hands, it is not a commandment from Yahweh either. This is Yahushua's point. He mentions that their priorities are wrong in whom they choose to obey. Continuing on...
4 [When] [they] [come] from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, [like] the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" 6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honors Me with [their] lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.'
It is vain to worship Him with the doctrines and commandments of men.
8 "For laying aside the commandment of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men--the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 9 He said to them, "[All] [too] well you reject the commandment of Yahweh, that you may keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother'; and, `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 "But you say, `If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] Corban"--' (that is, a gift [to] [Yahweh]), 12 "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 "making the word of Yahweh of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do." 14 When He had called all the multitude to [Himself], He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!" 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 "because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, [thus] purifying all foods?"
Other translations end this verse with "[This he said], making all meats clean. (ASV)" But this is not in the majority of greek manuscripts. This is obviously a note added to the book of Mark that someone will have to answer for on judgement day. First of all, it is not a correct statement. Yahushua was not talking about clean / unclean foods but whether or not Yahweh commanded us to eat with washed hands which He clearly did not.
20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
Consider the parallel of Yahushua's saying here in the book of Matthew:
Matt 15:19 (NKJV) "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 "These are [the] [things] which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
Therefore, it is clear that Yahweh's perfect law was not changed here. Many believe that this commandment was abolished in Acts chapter 10. Once again, let's take a close look at the context..
Acts 10:1 (NKJV) There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout [man] and one who feared Yahweh with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to Yahweh always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of Yahweh coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, Master?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before Yahweh. 5 "Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 "He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do." 7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually. 8 So when he had explained all [these] things to them, he sent them to Joppa. 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." 14 But Peter said, "Not so, Master! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."
Now consider this, Peter (Kepha) has never eaten anything common or unclean. Yet this is many years after Yahushua's resurrection and ascension. If Yahushua had declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19 then why does he still hold to the commandment not to do so? And even go a step furthur and reject the voice that told him to do so !? Continuing on...
15 And a voice [spoke] to him again the second time, "What Yahweh has cleansed you must not call common." 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. 17 Now while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant, behold, the men who had been sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate.
Now many would like to stop right here and say that now it is ok to eat unclean animals. But according to the previous verse, Kepha himself didn't even know what the vision meant. How then can we interpret the vision? We must read on..
18 And they called and asked whether Simon, whose surname was Peter, was lodging there. 19 While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you. 20 "Arise therefore, go down and go with them, doubting nothing; for I have sent them." 21 Then Peter went down to the men who had been sent to him from Cornelius, and said, "Yes, I am he whom you seek. For what reason have you come?" 22 And they said, "Cornelius [the] centurion, a just man, one who fears Yahweh and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you." 23 Then he invited them in and lodged [them]. On the next day Peter went away with them, and some brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped [him]. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man." 27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many who had come together. 28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But Yahweh has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
So this vision was not Yahweh trying to show Kepha that it is now okay to eat unclean foods, but rather it was Yahweh showing Kepha and the rest of the disciples that they are to go unto the gentiles too! Yahushua had commanded the disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations.." But they had not done so. So Yahweh sent a vision to Kepha to show that it is not against the commandment of Yahweh to go unto the gentiles. Rather, to the contrary! Continuing on, we see a confirmation of this...
28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But Yahweh has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 "Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. I ask, then, for what reason have you sent for me?" 30 So Cornelius said, "Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 "and said, `Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of Yahweh. 32 `Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here, whose surname is Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he will speak to you.' 33 "So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before Yahweh, to hear all the things commanded you by Yahweh." 34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that Yahweh shows no partiality. 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
We'll stop here but later in the chapter, Yahweh works a miracle when He pours out His spirit unto the gentiles in the presence of the Jews by having them speak in tongues. So by reading the context of this vision, we gain understanding of what it means. Another scripture that some point to to say that Yahweh has changed His mind on his commandment not to eat unclean foods is in the book of 1 Timothy:
1Tim 4:1 (NKJV) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, [and] [commanding] to abstain from foods which Yahweh created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Now if what Paul is speaking of here is the doctrine of abstaining from eating unclean animals then why does he refer to this doctrine as one of the 'doctrines of demons' ? Is it not a doctrine of Yahweh? It is a doctrine of Yahweh, not a doctrine of demons. Continuing on...
4 For every creature of Yahweh [is] good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of Yahweh and prayer.
Some have mistakenly thought that as long as they pray before they eat an unclean animal, that Yahweh cleanses it for them. This is not true. First we must identify what is food. According to Yahweh's word, unclean animals never were, aren't now and never will be "food." Food is something that we eat. And from the beginning, Yahweh seperated clean animals from unclean animals. Even Noah was told to take the unclean animals by pairs but the clean animals in groups of seven! Now let's take a closer look at this scripture. We are told in verse 5 that all the creatures of Yahweh are sanctified by His word. Sanctified means "Set apart". Yahweh set apart which animals are clean and which animals are unclean in His word. Yahweh's creation is to be "received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." What is truth? Yahweh's word. Consider the insight in John 17:
John 17:17 (NKJV) "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
Those who sanctify themselves by the words/doctrines of demons will be destroyed at the last day:
Isaiah 66:17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, [To] [go] to the gardens After an [idol] in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says Yahweh.
Another warning of Isaiah's reads:
Isai 52:11 (NKJV) Depart! Depart! Go out from there, Touch no unclean [thing]; Go out from the midst of her, Be clean, You who bear the vessels of Yahweh.
Paul quotes this verse in 1 Corinthians 10:11 and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18. This I will leave for you to look up. Let it be known that Yahweh desires a clean people. People who live clean, think clean and eat clean so that we are a fit temple for Yahweh's Holy Spirit. "
Referance
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. Mark 7 is a pre-cross statement. Is it your position that they were chewing on rats and cats pre-cross with Christ's approval??
#2. Mark 7 is about BREAD/WHEAT being UNCLEAN. The RULE of unclean in Mark 7 is NOT God's RULE it is a "man-made-tradition" and Christ says it is worthless. USING the fact that man's rule is bogus - to then argue that GOD's rules against chewing on cats dogs and rats is also bogus -- is merely the outworking of man-made-tradition it is not exegesis.
#3. THE argument in Mark 7 is that SIN is a "substance" that gets on your hands THEN gets on your BREAD (or any other food you eat) and THEN gets IN you so that you then become sinful because you failed to baptize your hands ceremonially and CLEANSE them from sin.
Christ states that NO SIN comes inside you as a SUBSTANCE that "got on your hands and contaminated your food"! He is practically laughing at that man made tradition.
He then blasts those who attempt to use man-made tradition to MAKE VOID the OT text of God's Word!
How those who choose man's-tradition over God's Word here - can think that THIS would be a good place to go to negate more scripture - is beyond me!!
Why go to the VERY text that is going to expose the flaw in your argument??
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is a good post example arguing FOR the "cat rat dog bat" diet saying that absolutely nothing should be forbidden.
This seems to be a hardship for some.
In Romans 14 we "already saw" that the issue is "meats offerred to idols" VS "VEGETABLES ONLY" NOT the issue of "Rats" vs "BEEF" as you would have it!
Why keep ignoring those details?
In Christ,
Bob
By contrast God specifically points to beef, lamb, chicken, salmon and sea bass as "food" and to "rats, cats, lizards, snakes and bats" as NOT food.
This seems to be a hardship for some.
In Romans 14 we "already saw" that the issue is "meats offerred to idols" VS "VEGETABLES ONLY" NOT the issue of "Rats" vs "BEEF" as you would have it!
Why keep ignoring those details?
In Christ,
Bob
its really interesting because just yesterday i asked for help from another board member as to where i should post a similar topic, but since its already started i will add here.. i am in to fitness, and came across this THE STRENGTH OF SAMSON: HOW TO ATTAIN IT it is by a gentleman named Mike Brown and he set up a fitness program based on the dietary laws set forth in Leviticus.. i am curious, strictly from a health/ fitness point of view, those who have kept to them, if they noticed any difference from a pre/ post diet in their health, fitness, etc.
You should check out these links:
Seventh Day Adventists live longer
When you get to this page click on the one called "Ten Times Wiser" and if you click the little television icon you can watch Pastor Doug Batchelor tell you about this.
Storacles -Health
Snitzelhoff
New Member
So "all things" doesn't mean "all things"? Instead, it means, "all things previously declared 'food'"? And, again, "every creature of God" doesn't mean "every creature of God," but "ceremonially clean creatures of God"? What about "every living thing that moveth"?
You may have seen it. I, however, seen you both say it a lot. But I don't see that in the text. And since I'm not basing my opinions on the Word of Bob, the text is what matters here. I see "all things" versus vegetables, because that's what the text says. What does "all things" mean, if not "all things"?
Let's stick to the text.
Michael
well. somebody got a concordance here? lets break out some hermaneutics and some exegesis of the scripture. otherwise we'll end up quadruple posting our posts in response to the other quadruple posting of their posts.
anybody? anybody? im at school. somebody provide a concordance or something to look at the original context and meanings of words like "all" in that verse.
sound like a good idea'r?
anybody? anybody? im at school. somebody provide a concordance or something to look at the original context and meanings of words like "all" in that verse.
sound like a good idea'r?
Snitzelhoff
New Member
Sounds like a capital idea, Gekko.
The term "all things" in that verse is the Greek word "pas," which Thayer's defines as:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
I don't see a limit implied by the word there.
While we're at it, let's look at the other verses I cited.
"Every" in I Timothy 4:4 is the same Greek word, "pas." Same definition.
"Every" in Genesis 9 is the Hebrew word "kole," and it is translated by Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions as:
1) all, the whole
1a) all, the whole of
1b) any, each, every, anything
1c) totality, everything
So, all the words for "every" and "all" mean "every" and "all." Who'da thunk it?
The term "all things" in that verse is the Greek word "pas," which Thayer's defines as:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
I don't see a limit implied by the word there.
While we're at it, let's look at the other verses I cited.
"Every" in I Timothy 4:4 is the same Greek word, "pas." Same definition.
"Every" in Genesis 9 is the Hebrew word "kole," and it is translated by Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions as:
1) all, the whole
1a) all, the whole of
1b) any, each, every, anything
1c) totality, everything
So, all the words for "every" and "all" mean "every" and "all." Who'da thunk it?
Snitzelhoff
New Member
Well, I copied and pasted from Thayer's. If you'd like, here is Strong's definition of the word:
"Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole"
It then goes on to give quite an extensive list of various contexts in which "pas" may be appropriately used.
It seems that a direct translation from "every" or "all" would work for "pas."
Michael
"Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole"
It then goes on to give quite an extensive list of various contexts in which "pas" may be appropriately used.
It seems that a direct translation from "every" or "all" would work for "pas."
Michael
Snitzelhoff
New Member
Well, Gekko, you obviously believe that SOME of the Levitical laws have passed, correct? I mean, do you still stone people for sinning? So just because laws can be designed for a certain period and people (as the dietary laws were), that does not mean God changes. God had His reasons for creating those laws for the Hebrew nation when He did.
God mentioned the clean and unclean animals to take on the Ark for sacrifices, as Genesis 8:20 shows us.
Peter, if you recall, had been known to be wrong before. This is the same guy who took it upon himself to rebuke Jesus in Matthew 16:22. This pattern is repeated in Acts 10. God gave him a command ("Kill and eat") and Peter corrected God on the matter. Now, either God was wrong for commanding sin, or Peter was wrong for disobeying. I have a much easier time believing Peter was wrong, since God is... well, God.
Michael
God mentioned the clean and unclean animals to take on the Ark for sacrifices, as Genesis 8:20 shows us.
Peter, if you recall, had been known to be wrong before. This is the same guy who took it upon himself to rebuke Jesus in Matthew 16:22. This pattern is repeated in Acts 10. God gave him a command ("Kill and eat") and Peter corrected God on the matter. Now, either God was wrong for commanding sin, or Peter was wrong for disobeying. I have a much easier time believing Peter was wrong, since God is... well, God.
Michael
please provide scripture referance when quoting it.
that vision. as explained before - was not about food - it is a representation of jews and gentiles.
we're grafted in. face the fact - we have become heirs according to the promise - so follow God and everything He says - our you grafted out.
that vision. as explained before - was not about food - it is a representation of jews and gentiles.
we're grafted in. face the fact - we have become heirs according to the promise - so follow God and everything He says - our you grafted out.