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JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, May 16, 2006.

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  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    BroBob,

    I am still not sure I am completely following you...

    In deed, I am not sure I am able to at this point in time...

    I suppose it's mostly a vantage point and background thing...

    At least we're both saved and fully intend on staying that way...

    So, I guess we can, at least for the moment, leave it at that? [​IMG]

    SMM
     
    #21 SpiritualMadMan, May 16, 2006
  2. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Mike,

    If one has your view about this:

    1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Then what purpose does it serve to even have it in the Bible?

    Would you please exaplain to us in your own words then what the Bible verse means to you?

    I have tried to explain before that Go desires the heart, but for some reason you dont listen to me when I say this. I never said I think God expects us to be perfectly perfectly perfect. He desires our love and loyalty.

    Can you please acknowledge that you have read this statement? Perhaps you have never read it but I have said it over and over.

    So your statement saying that well Claudia has sinned... has nothing whatever to do with anything.

    I did not view this as "already deteriorating into something accusatory"

    If in the book of Revelation it plainly says that there are many who view themselves as rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing. When really they are spiritually blind and naked and in need of everything. Dont you agree then that some will be terribly surprised? Thinking they were allright when really they werent.

    If the passage says that they dont have on the white rainment then it has to mean one of two things... you can decide for yourself what you think it means and so can I. I was giving my view of what that means.

    Okay?

    Claudia
     
    #22 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  3. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Question: What does "perfect" mean?

    Unfortunately, Catholic theology has misled many people on the meaning of the word "aionios", and therefore much confusion results. If more people preached from the original languages without the Catholic inflection, there would be many fewer denominations. (I don't think they would go away, but there would be fewer.)
     
    #23 Hope of Glory, May 16, 2006
  4. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Obviously it says Job was perfect and that he eschewed evil

    avoided, shunned evil.
     
    #24 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  5. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Excuse #1. This doesnt mean Christians this only applies to the Jews

    Excuse #2. This isnt really talking about Salvation

    Excuse #3. Perfect doesnt really mean perfect and commandments really dont mean commandments


    Then the other one...

    Claudia:There are hundreds of Bible verses that say we need to keep the commandments, can you ignore them all?

    answer: But do YOUUUUUUUUUUU keep the commandments? Do you REEEEEEEEEALLY KEEP THEM DOWN TO THE MINUTEST DETAIL???


    I was just showing what you guys look like to me...
     
    #25 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  6. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    I just went and looked up Strong's...

    Mat 5:48 Be2071 ye5210 therefore3767 perfect,5046 even as5618 your5216 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 heaven3772 is2076 perfect.5046

    Perfect here is 'Complete' can also mean mature, and, I believe, can mean 'without guile'. (But, I can't prove that one. [​IMG] )

    So, according to the Greek here this is not perfect as we would consider perfection as sinlessness...

    But, being "Whole in Character".

    Job 1:1 There was1961 a man376 in the land776 of Uz,5780 whose name8034 was Job;347 and that1931 man376 was1961 perfect8535 and upright,3477 and one that feared3373 God,430 and eschewed5493 evil.4480, 7451

    Here we are again talking about completeness not sinless perfection... BTW: It also means a man of gentle character...


    Luke 1:6 And1161 they were2258 both297 righteous1342 before1799 God,2316 walking4198 in1722 all3956 the3588 commandments1785 and2532 ordinances1345 of the3588 Lord2962 blameless.273

    Blameless here is above reproach... This can mean a number of things including that if they did sin they had always given the correct scarifices to reclaim faultlessness...

    SMM
     
    #26 SpiritualMadMan, May 16, 2006
  7. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    ok well perfect defined by Jesus was what? When He said be ye perfect...

    Jesus said Pray for your enemies, love those who despitefully use you and abuse you (and I do pray for you Mike)


    (Im just kidding with you Mike)


    But what I am trying to say is that it involves us DOING something...
     
    #27 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  8. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    How do YOU know what completeness means or wholeness of character means??? arent you making up your own definition???
     
    #28 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  9. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    besides that you seem to ignore the fact that when it says Job was perfect it said he was perfect eschewing (shunning) evil


    so we already KNOW what perfect means in this passage
     
    #29 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Oh, I thought that meant he was a tobacco chewer.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #30 Brother Bob, May 16, 2006
  11. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    hahahahaha!!! I guess Job's brand of chewin' tabaccy was "Evil" Brand and so he eschewed it!
     
    #31 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  12. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Hey!

    Wait just a minute there pilgrim...

    You *can't* have a sense of humor! :D
     
    #32 SpiritualMadMan, May 16, 2006
  13. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Sure we do... we just do penance afterwards
     
    #33 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Dear Spiritual Mad Man,


    I just got done reading your post to me in the "New Testament Sabbath" thread and you said this:

    "Semantics is a tricky thing...

    There is an art to making a point without sticking the point through the opposite debater...

    I am not as good at it as I would like to be...

    I call it giving *them* "wiggle room"...

    "Taste these two statements"

    Your home church is more legalistic than most...

    -or-

    Your home church appears to be more leaglistic than most from my vantage point...

    Which is more palatable??"


    OK so I want to learn how to properly debate and to not stick a swoard through my opponent.


    So How do I get my point across I am trying to make on this thread?

    Because I admit I am not a debater or anything even close to it.


    Teach me, please?

    I want to learn.


    If you were me how would you say what I have been trying to say?

    OR ANYBODY.. if you want to teach me, feel free to do so... I am open to learn.

    Because usually I feel like I want to whop people over the head with a hammer at some points... I get frustrated because it seems like what I am trying to say is so easy to see but they just dont seem to see it... so how do I get my points across to people in a more "genteel" "civilized" manner?

    I dont got no brungin' up... and so I need help. I didnt even graduate from High School.


    Claudia
     
    #34 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  15. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Claudia the only art to communication is to say what you mean and mean what you say. Anything outside of that and people have to try to figure out what you are trying to say.

    Scripture is not something to be won or lost, which is what debating is all about. Scripture is about Truth and lies. There is no grey area. It's either right or wrong. It's either Spirit led or it is Satan led.

    Our goal should not be to win a debate, but just to espouse Truth. If the other person sees it great. If they don't then they alone will have to answer for what the believe and why.

    Mean what you say and say what you mean. Now granted sometimes that hurts a little and you have to eat crow sometimes, but it's always better than playing word games.
     
    #35 J. Jump, May 16, 2006
  16. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Spiritual Mad Man

    Nevermind about that, I went and started a Poll on How to Debate Properly... so people can all give their own ideas on how to do that.


    Hopefully someone or a few someones will actually come there and give their opinions


    Claudia
     
    #36 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  17. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    J Jump

    I agree with you on every point. I am more trying to get people to see my point of view because I think it is right (of course)...

    and so Im not really into "winning" anything... Im just hoping to get through to people. and I get frustrated lots of times because it seems like no matter how I say something ... it wont matter.
     
    #37 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  18. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Claudia, if your salvation is gotten or kept by your merit, you are in trouble. [​IMG] We needed a Savior for a reason, because we are not righteous by anything we have or will do. Job needed a Savior or he would have been sacrificed for us. Job had a close walk with the Lord, much like Abraham. They both needed a Savior and scripture says that ALL have sinned and fallen short! Scripture cannot go against itself so perfect here does not mean sinless. It may mean that Job was chosen of God and blameless in the sight of God. Job could not have been sinless or he would have been our Savior. Jesus would not have had to come if a sinless man walked the earth.

    As for 1 John, it says twice that a believer "CAN'T SIN". But you say that I can sin and lose my favor with God and lose my salvation. If I can't sin how can I lose my salvation by sinning? There is only one way that the child of God "Can't sin" and that is if there is no sin for him to commit. I will let you think on that and will expand tonight or tomorrow.

    In Christ, Brian
     
    #38 Briguy, May 16, 2006
  19. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    A million times, NOOOOO I must not communicate effectively because I in no way whatsoever believe that we can somehow merit our salvation.

    I dont agree with the "cant sin" part...
     
    #39 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
  20. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE

    I would like to have you all think about something. The Pearl OF GREAT PRICE wasnt FREE!

    The merchantman bought the pearl by giving up all that he had!

    So then why is Christ and His grace, who IS the Pearl, represented as a free gift?

    Because is a gift, but only to those who give themselves, soul, body, and spirit, to Him without reserve.


    We are to give ALL to Christ, to live a life of willing obedience to His requirements.All our love, all our talents... to be consecrated to His service. Then when we hen we thus give ourselves wholly to Him, Christ, He gives Himself to us and thus, we obtain the pearl of GREAT price.

    Salvation is a free gift, and yet it is to be bought and sold.

    The Saviour invites us: "I counsel thee to BUY OF ME gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich." Rev. 3:8, 18.

    We must be willing to make an entire surrender of all we are and all we have to Christ.
     
    #40 Claudia_T, May 16, 2006
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