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JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION

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SpiritualMadMan

New Member
BroBob,

I am still not sure I am completely following you...

In deed, I am not sure I am able to at this point in time...

I suppose it's mostly a vantage point and background thing...

At least we're both saved and fully intend on staying that way...

So, I guess we can, at least for the moment, leave it at that?


SMM
 
C

Claudia_T

New Member
Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:


If so, why have John's Promise if we are going to be Judged as not Knowing Him for each and every infraction that comes about from human frailty?

1 John 1:8-10?

In fact, if in fact you are applying the above passage to the majority of Board Posters, you need to also be aware that John says that if you say you have no sin you are lying and The Truth isn't in you...

Which would mean by your own statements above... (1 John 2:3-6)

You can't Know Him either because if you have sin you aren't keeping the commandments either...

So, wouldn't it be better to discuss our differing views instead of playing this game of Spiritual-One-Up-Man-Ship?

SMM
Click to expand...
Mike,

If one has your view about this:

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Then what purpose does it serve to even have it in the Bible?

Would you please exaplain to us in your own words then what the Bible verse means to you?

I have tried to explain before that Go desires the heart, but for some reason you dont listen to me when I say this. I never said I think God expects us to be perfectly perfectly perfect. He desires our love and loyalty.

Can you please acknowledge that you have read this statement? Perhaps you have never read it but I have said it over and over.

So your statement saying that well Claudia has sinned... has nothing whatever to do with anything.

I did not view this as "already deteriorating into something accusatory"

If in the book of Revelation it plainly says that there are many who view themselves as rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing. When really they are spiritually blind and naked and in need of everything. Dont you agree then that some will be terribly surprised? Thinking they were allright when really they werent.

If the passage says that they dont have on the white rainment then it has to mean one of two things... you can decide for yourself what you think it means and so can I. I was giving my view of what that means.

Okay?

Claudia
 
H

Hope of Glory

New Member
I believe that if the Bible says someone is perfect or walking in the commandments, then thats just what it means. If it says Job was perfect then thats what it means.
Click to expand...
Question: What does "perfect" mean?

Unfortunately, Catholic theology has misled many people on the meaning of the word "aionios", and therefore much confusion results. If more people preached from the original languages without the Catholic inflection, there would be many fewer denominations. (I don't think they would go away, but there would be fewer.)
 
C

Claudia_T

New Member
Excuse #1. This doesnt mean Christians this only applies to the Jews

Excuse #2. This isnt really talking about Salvation

Excuse #3. Perfect doesnt really mean perfect and commandments really dont mean commandments


Then the other one...

Claudia:There are hundreds of Bible verses that say we need to keep the commandments, can you ignore them all?

answer: But do YOUUUUUUUUUUU keep the commandments? Do you REEEEEEEEEALLY KEEP THEM DOWN TO THE MINUTEST DETAIL???


I was just showing what you guys look like to me...
 
S

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
I just went and looked up Strong's...

Mat 5:48 Be2071 ye5210 therefore3767 perfect,5046 even as5618 your5216 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 heaven3772 is2076 perfect.5046

Perfect here is 'Complete' can also mean mature, and, I believe, can mean 'without guile'. (But, I can't prove that one.
)

So, according to the Greek here this is not perfect as we would consider perfection as sinlessness...

But, being "Whole in Character".

Job 1:1 There was1961 a man376 in the land776 of Uz,5780 whose name8034 was Job;347 and that1931 man376 was1961 perfect8535 and upright,3477 and one that feared3373 God,430 and eschewed5493 evil.4480, 7451

Here we are again talking about completeness not sinless perfection... BTW: It also means a man of gentle character...


Luke 1:6 And1161 they were2258 both297 righteous1342 before1799 God,2316 walking4198 in1722 all3956 the3588 commandments1785 and2532 ordinances1345 of the3588 Lord2962 blameless.273

Blameless here is above reproach... This can mean a number of things including that if they did sin they had always given the correct scarifices to reclaim faultlessness...

SMM
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
ok well perfect defined by Jesus was what? When He said be ye perfect...

Jesus said Pray for your enemies, love those who despitefully use you and abuse you (and I do pray for you Mike)


(Im just kidding with you Mike)


But what I am trying to say is that it involves us DOING something...
 
C

Claudia_T

New Member
How do YOU know what completeness means or wholeness of character means??? arent you making up your own definition???
 
C

Claudia_T

New Member
besides that you seem to ignore the fact that when it says Job was perfect it said he was perfect eschewing (shunning) evil


so we already KNOW what perfect means in this passage
 
C

Claudia_T

New Member
Dear Spiritual Mad Man,


I just got done reading your post to me in the "New Testament Sabbath" thread and you said this:

"Semantics is a tricky thing...

There is an art to making a point without sticking the point through the opposite debater...

I am not as good at it as I would like to be...

I call it giving *them* "wiggle room"...

"Taste these two statements"

Your home church is more legalistic than most...

-or-

Your home church appears to be more leaglistic than most from my vantage point...

Which is more palatable??"


OK so I want to learn how to properly debate and to not stick a swoard through my opponent.


So How do I get my point across I am trying to make on this thread?

Because I admit I am not a debater or anything even close to it.


Teach me, please?

I want to learn.


If you were me how would you say what I have been trying to say?

OR ANYBODY.. if you want to teach me, feel free to do so... I am open to learn.

Because usually I feel like I want to whop people over the head with a hammer at some points... I get frustrated because it seems like what I am trying to say is so easy to see but they just dont seem to see it... so how do I get my points across to people in a more "genteel" "civilized" manner?

I dont got no brungin' up... and so I need help. I didnt even graduate from High School.


Claudia
 
J

J. Jump

New Member
Claudia the only art to communication is to say what you mean and mean what you say. Anything outside of that and people have to try to figure out what you are trying to say.

Scripture is not something to be won or lost, which is what debating is all about. Scripture is about Truth and lies. There is no grey area. It's either right or wrong. It's either Spirit led or it is Satan led.

Our goal should not be to win a debate, but just to espouse Truth. If the other person sees it great. If they don't then they alone will have to answer for what the believe and why.

Mean what you say and say what you mean. Now granted sometimes that hurts a little and you have to eat crow sometimes, but it's always better than playing word games.
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
Spiritual Mad Man

Nevermind about that, I went and started a Poll on How to Debate Properly... so people can all give their own ideas on how to do that.


Hopefully someone or a few someones will actually come there and give their opinions


Claudia
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
J Jump

I agree with you on every point. I am more trying to get people to see my point of view because I think it is right (of course)...

and so Im not really into "winning" anything... Im just hoping to get through to people. and I get frustrated lots of times because it seems like no matter how I say something ... it wont matter.
 
B

Briguy

<img src =/briguy.gif>
Claudia, if your salvation is gotten or kept by your merit, you are in trouble.
We needed a Savior for a reason, because we are not righteous by anything we have or will do. Job needed a Savior or he would have been sacrificed for us. Job had a close walk with the Lord, much like Abraham. They both needed a Savior and scripture says that ALL have sinned and fallen short! Scripture cannot go against itself so perfect here does not mean sinless. It may mean that Job was chosen of God and blameless in the sight of God. Job could not have been sinless or he would have been our Savior. Jesus would not have had to come if a sinless man walked the earth.

As for 1 John, it says twice that a believer "CAN'T SIN". But you say that I can sin and lose my favor with God and lose my salvation. If I can't sin how can I lose my salvation by sinning? There is only one way that the child of God "Can't sin" and that is if there is no sin for him to commit. I will let you think on that and will expand tonight or tomorrow.

In Christ, Brian
 
C

Claudia_T

New Member
Originally posted by Briguy:
Claudia, if your salvation is gotten or kept by your merit, you are in trouble.
We needed a Savior for a reason, because we are not righteous by anything we have or will do. Job needed a Savior or he would have been sacrificed for us. Job had a close walk with the Lord, much like Abraham. They both needed a Savior and scripture says that ALL have sinned and fallen short! Scripture cannot go against itself so perfect here does not mean sinless. It may mean that Job was chosen of God and blameless in the sight of God. Job could not have been sinless or he would have been our Savior. Jesus would not have had to come if a sinless man walked the earth.

As for 1 John, it says twice that a believer "CAN'T SIN". But you say that I can sin and lose my favor with God and lose my salvation. If I can't sin how can I lose my salvation by sinning? There is only one way that the child of God "Can't sin" and that is if there is no sin for him to commit. I will let you think on that and will expand tonight or tomorrow.

In Christ, Brian
Click to expand...
A million times, NOOOOO I must not communicate effectively because I in no way whatsoever believe that we can somehow merit our salvation.

I dont agree with the "cant sin" part...
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE

I would like to have you all think about something. The Pearl OF GREAT PRICE wasnt FREE!

The merchantman bought the pearl by giving up all that he had!

So then why is Christ and His grace, who IS the Pearl, represented as a free gift?

Because is a gift, but only to those who give themselves, soul, body, and spirit, to Him without reserve.


We are to give ALL to Christ, to live a life of willing obedience to His requirements.All our love, all our talents... to be consecrated to His service. Then when we hen we thus give ourselves wholly to Him, Christ, He gives Himself to us and thus, we obtain the pearl of GREAT price.

Salvation is a free gift, and yet it is to be bought and sold.

The Saviour invites us: "I counsel thee to BUY OF ME gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich." Rev. 3:8, 18.

We must be willing to make an entire surrender of all we are and all we have to Christ.
 
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