JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION

[Briguy]

Claudia says:
I view that as an all round general statement... not literally that they cannot sin. Because we already know that the Bible says if we say we have no sin then we are a liar.
and
BUT I dont think anyone who is still in rebellion against God will be allowed in Heaven.

Claudia in your first statement above you say we can't take this passage (where it says the believer can't sin) literally. You say it doesn't really mean what it says. In a later post you discuss where Jesus talks about eating his flesh and drinking His blood. There you say that we need to take the passages literally. So, where it fits your theology the Bible is literal, where it doesn't, it is not literal. I only point that out because those from the RCC say I do that when I say that Jesus did not mean we should eat his flesh literally. I can make a much better argument for the Can't and doesn't in first John being literal then you could make for the literal eating of Jesus' flesh. The only point I want you to see is that you need to really think this through and not just pass scriptures you don't understand, off as not being not literal. That said, the second statement you make above is interesting. You are right, the person who is still in rebellion against God when he dies will not be in Heaven. Where we part is that you see Rebellion as our day to day actions. If they are good we are not rebelling and if they are bad we are rebelling. That would mean that ones eternal status could change day to day. One day saved the next day not saved. How strange for those rejoicing in Heaven, over the saving of the lost, to be rejoicing one moment and then not rejoicing over the same person the next moment -- or --

Does it just make more sense that the Blood of Jesus wipes out the rebellion of a person the moment thet trust Christ to forgive them and that this cleansing lasts forever which really gives those rejoicing in Heaven something to rejoice over. What Grace that is; forever wiping clean the slate of sin. In fact, the slate is so clean that no sinful act can ever stick to it again, I mean, it is like the believer DOESN'T sin anymore, one could even declare that the believer CAN'T SIN.

What a powerful cleaner the Blood of Christ is. Besides cleaning the obvious stains it even cleans the stains that aren't even there yet.

Claudia, you believe that the Blood of Jesus is a temporary cleaner. I believe it is a permanent cleaner. If actions play a role in salvation then you also believe that you do the scrubbing while jesus provides the Blood. I believe Jesus does both the scrubing and the providing.

I have more but will let you respond before this gets to long winded.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Claudia_T]

Brian,

Okay first of all, the reason I dont take that verse literally that we CANNOT SIN is because I try to read all the verses I can find on a subject and that just would not fit in with all the other Bible verses where we are admonished NOT to sin. Why tell us NOT to sin if we CANT SIN ANYWAY?

Right?

then with the passage of Jesus saying we have to eat His body and drink His blood.. no I DONT take that literally, I think its symbolic telling us to put His Word into our hearts, etc..

Okay Brian, then you said:

"Where we part is that you see Rebellion as our day to day actions. If they are good we are not rebelling and if they are bad we are rebelling. That would mean that ones eternal status could change day to day. One day saved the next day not saved. How strange for those rejoicing in Heaven, over the saving of the lost, to be rejoicing one moment and then not rejoicing over the same person the next moment -- or --"


Well I dont QUITE view things that way, I see it as more like who are your thoughts centered upon? who do you like conversing about? who are you trying to please? an overall thing and attitude I guess you could say...

And if we sin we have an Advocate. But in my opinion I think we are always kind of in a state of sin because if we look at the perfect character of Christ we can see how sinful we are by contrast.

I think if we purposely turn away from God then we are in trouble, but I dont see it as one minute we are saved and the next minute we arent.

I view it as like when Jesus said first the blade then the corn... etc... like a growing experience.

But I think still if you are in a state of rebellion when you die that you are not going to go to heaven.

OK Brian, again, you said, "Does it just make more sense that the Blood of Jesus wipes out the rebellion of a person the moment thet trust Christ to forgive them and that this cleansing lasts forever which really gives those rejoicing in Heaven something to rejoice over. What Grace that is; forever wiping clean the slate of sin. In fact, the slate is so clean that no sinful act can ever stick to it again, I mean, it is like the believer DOESN'T sin anymore, one could even declare that the believer CAN'T SIN. What a powerful cleaner the Blood of Christ is. Besides cleaning the obvious stains it even cleans the stains that aren't even there yet."

well I see what you mean because we are SUPPOSED TO think like this:


2Tm:1:12: I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Heb:12:2: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith

We are supposed to commit the keeping of our souls to Jesus...

I dont know Brian, I still have to work out lots of the kinks in how I believe.

But I just dont think it is right to hang on some of the Bible verses to the neglect or ignoring of the others.

Im the first to admit I know I dont have it all correct but Im trying

Honestly to me, it seems like those who are "liberal" seem to pick out certain Bible texts about grace and hang on those whole neglecting the ones about the law and the ones who are "conservative" seem to do the opposite and I think NEITHER are correct!

I want to find the right balance in all of this, I truly do!

[ May 24, 2006, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Briguy]

Hi Claudia, for some reason I thought you were RC. I wrote my post to you with that thought in mind. I checked your profile and you are SDA so please forgive anything I said that was obviously directed at someone with RC beliefs.

Claudia, the balance you seek is there and I think we are all striving to do our best to understand it. Think of it in seperate sections rather then a scale that balances out. With the law something drastic has happened in the death and resurection of jesus. The Law now cannot condem the believer. The Bible says there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the believer, the Law is taken out of the equation. The Law which exposed sin is taken out and cannot condem the believer ever again and in that respect the believer doesn't and can't sin. On the other side we have this flesh. The flesh can still sin. The flesh is weak, even when the heart is willing. we will fail, we will fall from time to time. Our goal is to use our secure salvation as a tool to control the flesh. The flesh is open to the attacks of satin, our salvation is not. We love others as a result of our salvation, not to obtain or keep it. If we are thankful to a friend for giving us $100, during a tough time, how much more thankful should we be for what God has done for us. Our life should reflect that and we need to stand strong against Satan so the world see our light. Our light is to shine before others, not before God. He already knows our heart but the world needs to see our heart.

more later,
In Christ,
Brian

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Claudia, for some reason I thought you were RC. I wrote my post to you with that thought in mind. I checked your profile and you are SDA so please forgive anything I said that was obviously directed at someone with RC beliefs.

Claudia, the balance you seek is there and I think we are all striving to do our best to understand it. Think of it in seperate sections rather then a scale that balances out. With the law something drastic has happened in the death and resurection of jesus. The Law now cannot condem the believer. The Bible says there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the believer, the Law is taken out of the equation. The Law which exposed sin is taken out and cannot condem the believer ever again and in that respect the believer doesn't and can't sin. On the other side we have this flesh. The flesh can still sin. The flesh is weak, even when the heart is willing. we will fail, we will fall from time to time. Our goal is to use our secure salvation as a tool to control the flesh. The flesh is open to the attacks of satin, our salvation is not. We love others as a result of our salvation, not to obtain or keep it. If we are thankful to a friend for giving us $100, during a tough time, how much more thankful should we be for what God has done for us. Our life should reflect that and we need to stand strong against Satan so the world see our light. Our light is to shine before others, not before God. He already knows our heart but the world needs to see our heart.

more later,
In Christ,
Brian

Brian,

But you say the Law cannot condemn the believer. You said:

"The Bible says there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the believer, the Law is taken out of the equation."

In a certain sense I agree with you that the Law is taken out of the equation. BUT, you didnt quote the other part of that verse... It says

Rom:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Brian, then you said,
"On the other side we have this flesh. The flesh can still sin."


I am going to start up a thread about the book of Romans and maybe we could talk over there, and that way I wont have to type this twice!

Hope you come there because I like talking with you.

 

[Brother Bob]

Correction; I meant to say the body is perishing day by day in the above post not the soul.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Claudia, here is more of Romans 8: (KJV)

[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

When a person is saved they are no longer walking in the flesh, they are walking in the Spirit. It is easy to think that "walking" here is referring to day to day actions of a person, but it is not. Read verse 9, Paul says they are not in the Flesh. How could he just make a statement like that when he doesn't follow each person around to see what they do? Well, he can because he knew that those he was writing to had confessed Jesus as Savior. It was being saved that gave Paul the right to tell them they were no longer in the flesh. Paul strives to make Christians see how they should act based on who they are in Christ. He is not trying to tell people that they must act a certain way and do certain things to be a Christian. Claudia. I know that may be a different way to look at things for you but it lines up with the scriptures as a whole.

Saved = walking in the Spirit
Unsaved = walking in the flesh

Now, we still have a flesh, that is a body. While in this pathletic body will make mistakes, some big, some small. The Christian does not cease to walk in the Spirit because of his actions. Hebrews tells us that Jesus is the anchor of our souls. If our actions made a difference then WE would be the anchor of our souls. I for one am glad that Jesus is my anchor. If I was the anchor I would be washed a shore in a moment.

In Christ,
Brian