The Millennium 1,000-year period

Claudia, where do you find (MEANING WICKED)?
The rest of the dead will not be resurrected, which means there will be another resurrection, right?

Then where do you find the rest of the believers there, except the Martyrs and the Special Saints, Survivors from the Beast and Harlot?


Do you agree that "live not again" means "resurrect not"?, then where do you find such limitation to "wicked" ? Is it your own Bible?

 

Claudia_T: //Im hoping to be able to go through it one idea
at a time... and maybe we can all be able to agree
at least on some things or at the very least get
us all thinking about this subject //

Oh, there will be no agreement.
I've been debating eschatology on this board, well you
have been here longer than me and know how long i've been
here. So you have seen what happens.

But, we can maybe simulate some minds, maybe?

We can't even agree on simple definitions of words
like the 'and' (in English, 'kai' in Greek)
that seperates/connects the two groups of people
in Revelation 20:4. what does that 'kai mean?

The epistemology of eschatology

Before you even get to the basics of eschatolgy, one
needs to go to the basics of epistemology (how one knows
what one knows; how one believes what one believes).
Basic episteimology is lost in the Calvin/Armnius debate
-- the flames of which hide the whole of episteimology.

Anyway, here is the step of Epistemology which relates
to eschatology (study of last things):

What is the major way in which we should approach Bible
Prophecy? Some of the answers are:

1. FUTURIST - one who believes that
most of the Bible prophecies of the New Testament
and some of the Old Testament are to be fulfilled in our future

2. PRETERIST - one who believes that
most of the Bible prohecies have been fulfilled
from the First Advent of Jesus to the destruction of
the Jewish Temple in 70AD

3. ??? - one who believes that
the Bible prophecies have been fulflled, are being
fulfilled in the Church, and will be fulfilled.

4. Mystic/spiritualist - one who believes that the
Bible prpphecies are to be spiritually discerned and have
little, if any, physical meaning (note that the term
'spiritual/literal' gets used a lot, i.e. the event is
literal but in the spiritual sense ONLY)

This choice determines the rest of one's eschatology.

Salvation of Gentiles in the Tribulation Period

MMan: //Under your philosophy, if you die and you are not beheaded,
you don't stand a chance.//

Exactly. This is exactly the way it will be in the Tribulation
Period for gentiles. The only way a Gentile can get saved
in the Tribualtion Period is to be a stilborn Chrisitan.
Thier first work for Christ, confessing Him Lord will be
his last work on earth.

The largely Gentile Church of the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles)
will be raptured out of the world at the end of the
Church Age at the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.
After that it will be very hard for a Gentile to be saved,
the Tribulation Period is for the salvation of a maximum
numher of Jews/Israeli elect saints.

 

This typo amused me greatly for some reason.

 

Do you know the English meaning of REST? It means the others after excluding the previous mentioned people.

You can see who are the rest of those in the later verses 20:12-14, which mentions the people whose names are written in the book of life.

Does the verse 20:4-5 mean All the believers whose names are recorded in the book of life? NOPE!

But is translated from "KAI" which is normally interpretted as "and". It depends on the translator.

You must exclude your own pre-conception.

Blessed those who are participating in the New Millenium because they will enjoy a lot of privileges which we don't know very much yet.

Others, the Rest of the Believers will have simply the eternal lives, let alone the unbelievers who will be resurrected at the same time with them.

[ May 19, 2006, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

Hi Brother Ed,

Your view is the typical way of Pre-Tribulation Rapture belief.
Most of so-called Plymouth Brethren have the same view as yours. I disagree with them.

They say that All the believers will be raptured and then the Holy Spirit will re-inaugurate for the salvation of the people.
In Rev 7, you find hundreds of millions of believers from the Tribulation. Are they born-again during the 7 years' tribulation?

Why did Paul waste so much time for preaching Gospel, because he didn't do so fast as the Jews do within 7 years?

They often say that Revelation is the book about the period during the Tribulation, which is proven wrong when we read ch 12 where the man-child to rule the world is born and caught up to God,which actually happened 2000 years ago.

Where is the Rapture mentioned in Rev?
In Rev 11:11-13 you can find the 2 witnesses are taken up. Who are the 2 witnesses? you can find the answer when you read the entire chapter of Zechariah 4.

I have read the most of the books by the people who claim the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Unfortunately many people will suffer the Tribulation, especially in this North America!

 

First, we need to understand some of the numerology of the Bible, especially the 1000 years in Revelation. Is it to be taken literal, or is it symbolic? I believe it to be symbolic, as it was used at times in the O.T. God said, "The cattle on a 1000 hills are mine." Does that mean the cattle on any hill 'over' the 100 hill mark are not His? I think not! God was using this '1000' number to represent a whole and entire complete number. They were ALL His! When He said, "I remember my covenants for a 1000 generations", does that mean after a '1000' generations He will no longer remember them? Surely not! 1000 is a multiple of 10(which is a complete number), and was used many times in the Hebrew language, and often represented an entirely completed event, time, or situation. In other words, this '1000' years in Revelation could have meant anything from just years or OVER 1000 years. For it was relating only to the total completion to a set time event as designated by God. What this time period is(in my opinion) would open up another whole(as the number 10 is) can of worms!

 

Yes, there are possibilities of symbolic, but in this case, I believe it is literal as we think about 6,000 years history.

Claudia,

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Who are the Remnant? do you notice that they glorify God when 2 witnesses are taken up ?

Have you carefully read Zecahriah 4 which explains about 2 witnesses?

 

The thousand years -is- a symbol among many symbols which John uses; 'they are' not and it is not called a "thousand years period". In other word, it's not literal.

The 'first resurrection' marks the beginning of this symbol of Christ's rule - the kingdom of heaven upon the earth - through His saints, and is well described for being the regeneration of the elect from among the mass of mankind who are the spiritually dead. "Over them the second death has no power" because they are the saved of God.

Now comes the resurrection day - and nowhere is it said only the damned now rise - but everyone - some to everlasting shame and punishment; the others to everlasting glory with Christ. This is the second coming of Christ and the last day He shall have to do with sin - to eradicate it and the memory and results of it.

 

I believe my explanation is no can of worms?

 

No This the spiritual, 'first' resurrection : "
posted May 18, 2006 04:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eliyahu:

Read this outloud to yourself a couple of times and I bet you will get it! (seriously)... dont have any preconceived opinions when you do... just read it outloud.


Revelation 20:
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

"The rest of the dead" are seen as the rest of mankind - the unregerate - remaining in the death of sin, not to rise before the last and judgement day; then they will be very 'live'-aware of God, of Christ and of redemption missed.

 

the two witnesses will give God's final witness


http://garnertedarmstrong.ws/radio.shtml

 

Old Testament and New Testament will die (Reve 11:7-8) ?

Then they revive again and will be taken up to God (Rev 11:11) ?

I think you have not read Zechariah 4 despite my recommendation, read the last paragraph:

What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth .


Do you still deny that these are the ones mentioned in Rev 11:4 ?

 

The scripture you quoted clearly defines who will populate the Millennium. It says ONLY Christian martrys. It does NOT say all of the saved.

 

Eliyahu: //In Rev 7, you find hundreds of millions of believers
from the Tribulation. Are they born-again during the 7 years' tribulation?//

These are they which have come out of the Great Tribualtion
by being raptured before the Tribualation happens.
There is an uncountable number of people there in Rev. 7.
Yet later on in Revelation a count of 200 Million is given.
I think there will be lots more than 200 Million people
around the throne in Revelation 7: the saints of all the
Time of the Gentiles.


Claudia_T: //There is no such thing as a secret rapture.
Jesus is going to come to get all His people
at the second coming and every eye will see Him //

Amen, Sister -- PReach it.
Then 7 years later Jeus will come get the antichrist and
his cohorts and every eye will see Him again.

BTW, as the first in the topic to mention 'secret rapture'
you are fighting a strawman you brought to the board - tee hee

Eliyahu: //Where is the Rapture mentioned in Rev?//

The Rapture isn't mentioned in Revelation.
The word "Trinity" isn't mentioned in Revelation.
Rapture is included in Rev 4:1 by type.

 

That is the typical so-called Plymouth Brethren dispensationalism. I know all the details of them as I am so-called PB.
Please don't be deceived by them!

If the Rapture is implied in ch 4, then why ch 12 is talking about the Man-child who is going to rule over the world, and was caught up to God ( 12:5)?

Why is so important event not mentioned which is the most dramatic and important event in detail ?

Why does Rev 11:7-11 clearly indicate the Rapture of 2 witnesses?

Have you checked closely between Zechariah 4 and Rev 11 ?

Many of our church people say exactly same as you do, which I disagree.

 

As you said 1260 days symbolize the period during which Jesus was preaching the Gospel.
Likewise, 2 witnesses the key Christian believers have trestified for 2,000 years, which is symbolized by 1260 days.
When 2 testaments are caught up to God, their enemies were watching them. What does this mean, then?

How do the remnant glorify God seeing the whole situation ?

In your logic, 2 testaments are taken up, the enemies (like Da Vin Ci Code book) watch them, then many commentaries glorify God?

Sounds like Puppet Drama or Cartoon book story!