The Millennium 1,000-year period

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:

5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is saying about those who dont receive the mark of the beast then it skips over to telling you what happens to the rest of the dead... (meaning the wicked) and then goes back to telling you that what this is (those who get the victory over the beast) are those who are in the first resurrection.

Claudia, where do you find (MEANING WICKED)?
The rest of the dead will not be resurrected, which means there will be another resurrection, right?

Then where do you find the rest of the believers there, except the Martyrs and the Special Saints, Survivors from the Beast and Harlot?


Do you agree that "live not again" means "resurrect not"?, then where do you find such limitation to "wicked" ? Is it your own Bible?

 

[Claudia_T]

Eliyahu,

Ok here are the verses in question:

Revelation 20:
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


First it talks about the good people.

then it says "BUT "the REST OF THE DEAD
... this must mean the opposite.

..this is the first ressurrection (going back to the original thing he was talking about, which are those good people and also who he talks about next as well)

Then it says Blessed are those (though) who have part in that first resurrection (meaning the ones who are the good people he originally talked about)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Claudia_T: //Im hoping to be able to go through it one idea
at a time... and maybe we can all be able to agree
at least on some things or at the very least get
us all thinking about this subject //

Oh, there will be no agreement.
I've been debating eschatology on this board, well you
have been here longer than me and know how long i've been
here. So you have seen what happens.

But, we can maybe simulate some minds, maybe?

We can't even agree on simple definitions of words
like the 'and' (in English, 'kai' in Greek)
that seperates/connects the two groups of people
in Revelation 20:4. what does that 'kai mean?

The epistemology of eschatology

Before you even get to the basics of eschatolgy, one
needs to go to the basics of epistemology (how one knows
what one knows; how one believes what one believes).
Basic episteimology is lost in the Calvin/Armnius debate
-- the flames of which hide the whole of episteimology.

Anyway, here is the step of Epistemology which relates
to eschatology (study of last things):

What is the major way in which we should approach Bible
Prophecy? Some of the answers are:

1. FUTURIST - one who believes that
most of the Bible prophecies of the New Testament
and some of the Old Testament are to be fulfilled in our future

2. PRETERIST - one who believes that
most of the Bible prohecies have been fulfilled
from the First Advent of Jesus to the destruction of
the Jewish Temple in 70AD

3. ??? - one who believes that
the Bible prophecies have been fulflled, are being
fulfilled in the Church, and will be fulfilled.

4. Mystic/spiritualist - one who believes that the
Bible prpphecies are to be spiritually discerned and have
little, if any, physical meaning (note that the term
'spiritual/literal' gets used a lot, i.e. the event is
literal but in the spiritual sense ONLY)

This choice determines the rest of one's eschatology.

Salvation of Gentiles in the Tribulation Period

MMan: //Under your philosophy, if you die and you are not beheaded,
you don't stand a chance.//

Exactly. This is exactly the way it will be in the Tribulation
Period for gentiles. The only way a Gentile can get saved
in the Tribualtion Period is to be a stilborn Chrisitan.
Thier first work for Christ, confessing Him Lord will be
his last work on earth.

The largely Gentile Church of the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles)
will be raptured out of the world at the end of the
Church Age at the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.
After that it will be very hard for a Gentile to be saved,
the Tribulation Period is for the salvation of a maximum
numher of Jews/Israeli elect saints.

 

[Hope of Glory]

But, we can maybe simulate some minds, maybe?

This typo amused me greatly for some reason.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
First it talks about the good people.

then it says "BUT "the REST OF THE DEAD
... this must mean the opposite.

..this is the first ressurrection (going back to the original thing he was talking about, which are those good people and also who he talks about next as well)

Then it says Blessed are those (though) who have part in that first resurrection (meaning the ones who are the good people he originally talked about)

Do you know the English meaning of REST? It means the others after excluding the previous mentioned people.

You can see who are the rest of those in the later verses 20:12-14, which mentions the people whose names are written in the book of life.

Does the verse 20:4-5 mean All the believers whose names are recorded in the book of life? NOPE!

But is translated from "KAI" which is normally interpretted as "and". It depends on the translator.

You must exclude your own pre-conception.

Blessed those who are participating in the New Millenium because they will enjoy a lot of privileges which we don't know very much yet.

Others, the Rest of the Believers will have simply the eternal lives, let alone the unbelievers who will be resurrected at the same time with them.

[ May 19, 2006, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The largely Gentile Church of the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles)
will be raptured out of the world at the end of the
Church Age at the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.
After that it will be very hard for a Gentile to be saved,
the Tribulation Period is for the salvation of a maximum
numher of Jews/Israeli elect saints. [/QB]

Hi Brother Ed,

Your view is the typical way of Pre-Tribulation Rapture belief.
Most of so-called Plymouth Brethren have the same view as yours. I disagree with them.

They say that All the believers will be raptured and then the Holy Spirit will re-inaugurate for the salvation of the people.
In Rev 7, you find hundreds of millions of believers from the Tribulation. Are they born-again during the 7 years' tribulation?

Why did Paul waste so much time for preaching Gospel, because he didn't do so fast as the Jews do within 7 years?

They often say that Revelation is the book about the period during the Tribulation, which is proven wrong when we read ch 12 where the man-child to rule the world is born and caught up to God,which actually happened 2000 years ago.

Where is the Rapture mentioned in Rev?
In Rev 11:11-13 you can find the 2 witnesses are taken up. Who are the 2 witnesses? you can find the answer when you read the entire chapter of Zechariah 4.

I have read the most of the books by the people who claim the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Unfortunately many people will suffer the Tribulation, especially in this North America!

 

[Claudia_T]

There is no such thing as a secret rapture. Jesus is going to come to get all His people at the second coming and every eye will see Him

 

[eschatologist]

First, we need to understand some of the numerology of the Bible, especially the 1000 years in Revelation. Is it to be taken literal, or is it symbolic? I believe it to be symbolic, as it was used at times in the O.T. God said, "The cattle on a 1000 hills are mine." Does that mean the cattle on any hill 'over' the 100 hill mark are not His? I think not! God was using this '1000' number to represent a whole and entire complete number. They were ALL His! When He said, "I remember my covenants for a 1000 generations", does that mean after a '1000' generations He will no longer remember them? Surely not! 1000 is a multiple of 10(which is a complete number), and was used many times in the Hebrew language, and often represented an entirely completed event, time, or situation. In other words, this '1000' years in Revelation could have meant anything from just years or OVER 1000 years. For it was relating only to the total completion to a set time event as designated by God. What this time period is(in my opinion) would open up another whole(as the number 10 is) can of worms!

 

[Eliyahu]

Yes, there are possibilities of symbolic, but in this case, I believe it is literal as we think about 6,000 years history.

Claudia,

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Who are the Remnant? do you notice that they glorify God when 2 witnesses are taken up ?

Have you carefully read Zecahriah 4 which explains about 2 witnesses?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
The Millennium 1,000-year period

What starts off this 1,000 period?


Rev. 20:4: These came to life again and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

A resurrection begins the 1,000-year period.


What is this resurrection called and who will be raised in it?


Rev. 20:
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection

It is called the first resurrection. It will be the righteous people, “the blessed and holy” of all ages-- who are raised in it.


There is another resurrection. What is this second resurrection and who will be raised in it?

Rev. 20:5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

These are the wicked and they live not again until the 1,000-year period is finished.


John 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


This second resurrection is called the resurrection of damnation. It takes place at the close of the 1,000-year period.

And so the resurrection of the righteous begins the 1,000-year period and the resurrection of the wicked ends the 1,000 years.

Now can everyone agree on this basic starting point?

The thousand years -is- a symbol among many symbols which John uses; 'they are' not and it is not called a "thousand years period". In other word, it's not literal.

The 'first resurrection' marks the beginning of this symbol of Christ's rule - the kingdom of heaven upon the earth - through His saints, and is well described for being the regeneration of the elect from among the mass of mankind who are the spiritually dead. "Over them the second death has no power" because they are the saved of God.

Now comes the resurrection day - and nowhere is it said only the damned now rise - but everyone - some to everlasting shame and punishment; the others to everlasting glory with Christ. This is the second coming of Christ and the last day He shall have to do with sin - to eradicate it and the memory and results of it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by eschatologist:
First, we need to understand some of the numerology of the Bible, especially the 1000 years in Revelation. Is it to be taken literal, or is it symbolic? I believe it to be symbolic, as it was used at times in the O.T. God said, "The cattle on a 1000 hills are mine." Does that mean the cattle on any hill 'over' the 100 hill mark are not His? I think not! God was using this '1000' number to represent a whole and entire complete number. They were ALL His! When He said, "I remember my covenants for a 1000 generations", does that mean after a '1000' generations He will no longer remember them? Surely not! 1000 is a multiple of 10(which is a complete number), and was used many times in the Hebrew language, and often represented an entirely completed event, time, or situation. In other words, this '1000' years in Revelation could have meant anything from just years or OVER 1000 years. For it was relating only to the total completion to a set time event as designated by God. What this time period is(in my opinion) would open up another whole(as the number 10 is) can of worms!

I believe my explanation is no can of worms?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Okay let's move on now. There are two Resurrections. The second Resurrection involves THE WICKED..

This happens AFTER the 1,000-year period is finished.


Revelation 20:5: But the rest of the dead [the wicked} lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

John 5:28,29
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Like I aid, the Resurrection of the righteous starts the 1,000 year period and the Resurrection of the wicked ends the 1,000 year period.

When the 1,000 years start we have first the second coming of Christ...

I Thessalonians 4:
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There will be terrific hailstorms and earthquake
Revelation 16:18,20,21

18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

See also Isaiah chapter 2 and 24, and Jeremiah 4:23-26

But the wicked who are LIVING when Jesus comes will be destroy by the brightness of His coming..

2Thess. 1:7,8
7: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

Psalm 68:2;
so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

THE CONDITION OF THE EARTH DURING THE 1,000-year period is UTTER DEVASTATION!!!

Nobody is going to be able to repent at this time, as is commonly taught... Too late for that!

Jeremiah 25:33
33: And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.


Jeremiah 4:25
25: I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.


No more probationary time left, every case is decided...

Revelation 22:11,12
11: He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The wicked dead will be lying all over the place on the earth and the righteous will be in heaven.

There will be a Judgment in Heaven going on during the 1,000 year period.

Satan will be "bound" on the earth during the 1,000 year period. He will have nobody left to tempt and thus the term "bound"... He will have lots of time to think about what he has done.

Revelation 20:1-3
1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


During this Judgment that is going on in Heaven for the 1,000 year period, God's people will get the chance to ask questions about why so and so was saved or lost.

I Corinthians 6:2,3
2: Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3: Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Revelation 20:4

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


During this time, God's justice will be vindicated. All will see that He has been fair with humanity in His handling of the conrovery between God and Satan... from start to finish.


We will see why people were shut out of heaven and we will know God's ways are just and true.

No This the spiritual, 'first' resurrection : "
posted May 18, 2006 04:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eliyahu:

Read this outloud to yourself a couple of times and I bet you will get it! (seriously)... dont have any preconceived opinions when you do... just read it outloud.


Revelation 20:
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

"The rest of the dead" are seen as the rest of mankind - the unregerate - remaining in the death of sin, not to rise before the last and judgement day; then they will be very 'live'-aware of God, of Christ and of redemption missed.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Yes, there are possibilities of symbolic, but in this case, I believe it is literal as we think about 6,000 years history.

Claudia,

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Who are the Remnant? do you notice that they glorify God when 2 witnesses are taken up ?

Have you carefully read Zecahriah 4 which explains about 2 witnesses?

The Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments..Please read this:

The Two Witnesses

 

[wopik]

the two witnesses will give God's final witness


http://garnertedarmstrong.ws/radio.shtml

 

[Eliyahu]

Old Testament and New Testament will die (Reve 11:7-8) ?

Then they revive again and will be taken up to God (Rev 11:11) ?

I think you have not read Zechariah 4 despite my recommendation, read the last paragraph:

What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth .


Do you still deny that these are the ones mentioned in Rev 11:4 ?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Eliyahu,

Ok here are the verses in question:

Revelation 20:
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


First it talks about the good people.

then it says "BUT "the REST OF THE DEAD
... this must mean the opposite.

..this is the first ressurrection (going back to the original thing he was talking about, which are those good people and also who he talks about next as well)

Then it says Blessed are those (though) who have part in that first resurrection (meaning the ones who are the good people he originally talked about)

The scripture you quoted clearly defines who will populate the Millennium. It says ONLY Christian martrys. It does NOT say all of the saved.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Eliyahu: //In Rev 7, you find hundreds of millions of believers
from the Tribulation. Are they born-again during the 7 years' tribulation?//

These are they which have come out of the Great Tribualtion
by being raptured before the Tribualation happens.
There is an uncountable number of people there in Rev. 7.
Yet later on in Revelation a count of 200 Million is given.
I think there will be lots more than 200 Million people
around the throne in Revelation 7: the saints of all the
Time of the Gentiles.


Claudia_T: //There is no such thing as a secret rapture.
Jesus is going to come to get all His people
at the second coming and every eye will see Him //

Amen, Sister -- PReach it.
Then 7 years later Jeus will come get the antichrist and
his cohorts and every eye will see Him again.

BTW, as the first in the topic to mention 'secret rapture'
you are fighting a strawman you brought to the board - tee hee

Eliyahu: //Where is the Rapture mentioned in Rev?//

The Rapture isn't mentioned in Revelation.
The word "Trinity" isn't mentioned in Revelation.
Rapture is included in Rev 4:1 by type.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Eliyahu: //Where is the Rapture mentioned in Rev?//

The Rapture isn't mentioned in Revelation.
The word "Trinity" isn't mentioned in Revelation.
Rapture is included in Rev 4:1 by type. [/QB]

That is the typical so-called Plymouth Brethren dispensationalism. I know all the details of them as I am so-called PB.
Please don't be deceived by them!

If the Rapture is implied in ch 4, then why ch 12 is talking about the Man-child who is going to rule over the world, and was caught up to God ( 12:5)?

Why is so important event not mentioned which is the most dramatic and important event in detail ?

Why does Rev 11:7-11 clearly indicate the Rapture of 2 witnesses?

Have you checked closely between Zechariah 4 and Rev 11 ?

Many of our church people say exactly same as you do, which I disagree.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Old Testament and New Testament will die (Reve 11:7-8) ?

Then they revive again and will be taken up to God (Rev 11:11) ?

I think you have not read Zechariah 4 despite my recommendation, read the last paragraph:

What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth .


Do you still deny that these are the ones mentioned in Rev 11:4 ?

Eliyahu,

You keep assuming things

I NEVER denied that about the two olive trees, the candlestick, etc... if you'd of read what I asked you to read you'd of seen that was exactly what I said the two witnesses were. You just dont understand what the symbolism means.


"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

"Thy word," said the psalmist, "is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Revelation 11:4; Psalm 119:105.

It is the Word of God that is represented here that gives light.

The reason it is called the TWO witnesses is that it represents the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament.




"They shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth."

The old and new testaments "Prophecy" or tell about the continuation of the Law of God and also the plan of salvation, which was absolutely HATED by the papal power and by atheists of the French Revolution, and they sought to
get rid of it or to "kill" this testimony.
The old testament had types and prophecies that witnessed about the Saviour that was to come and the New Testament tells of the Saviour Jesus who DID come in the same manner that was foretold in the Old testament. Therefore they were called "Two Witnesses".

The reason it says this is that for the most part the Bible remained during that time period in a state of obscurity because the papal power sought to keep them hidden.

The Bible was forbidden by religious and secular authority. Everything they could think of was invented to turn the mind away from the scriptures. People who stayed faithful were martyred and tortured.


Thus the "faithful witnesses" prophesied in sackcloth. And they continued their testimony throughout the prophesied time period of 1260 full years.


"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed." Revelation 11:5.


Revelation's closing chapter:: "I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18, 19.

If you'd go read what I asked you to, you would get the entire picture, you would understand what EGYPT and SODOM mean in the prophecy, etc...

[ May 23, 2006, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Eliyahu]

As you said 1260 days symbolize the period during which Jesus was preaching the Gospel.
Likewise, 2 witnesses the key Christian believers have trestified for 2,000 years, which is symbolized by 1260 days.
When 2 testaments are caught up to God, their enemies were watching them. What does this mean, then?

How do the remnant glorify God seeing the whole situation ?

In your logic, 2 testaments are taken up, the enemies (like Da Vin Ci Code book) watch them, then many commentaries glorify God?

Sounds like Puppet Drama or Cartoon book story!