DEAD MEANS DEAD!

Interesting to note that your veses mention Sleep or Asleep, or rise ( they rise because they were sleeping).

 

JFox1: The soul and spirit are within us and separate from the body at death.

HP: What is the distinction you see between the soul and spirit? I realize that the words have many meanings in different contexts, but speaking of the inner makeup of man, and depicting it as incorporating both soul and spirit, what duties or phenomena do you see predicated of them individually that would distinguish one from the other? What gives rise to their separate and distinct diffferent existences? Take the intellect for example. It appeared to me that some at least try and separate the intellect from the spirit. Some have equated the spirit to simply ‘breath.’ When I have queried them as to the phenomena predicated of the soul, I just get a list of verses that either simply use the word soul in them, or mentions the words spirit and soul in the same verses. I see that as less than logical proof that the soul and spirit are not most generally speaking of simply the inner man, not two distinct and separate phenomenas within the inner man.

 

Jauthur 001: HP and or Bob,

I am a Calvinist. Therefore you know how I will reply to the 1st part. You know and may have read the verses I will post on this. In short election removes the blindness placed on us by sin, so that we can have faith.

As to the other side of the fence, post me the verses you would like me to address and I will try my best. Right off the top of my head I can think of 1 John 1-3 and also in Romans, Paul hits on this a bit. Any other passages?

Hi Jarthur,

Please forgive me for being so dull. I have put in too many long hours today. Refresh my memory as to the topic you are referring to. We have been all over the place on different issues, and I desire to answer in response to the one you are speaking about if you will help me. Thanks!

 

Is a sleeping man dead or alive?

It is a matter of wording, and I feel you should correct it.

If Bible says "sleep" then you better say "sleep" instead of dead.

Dead people( who believed in Jesus) are sleeping, they are alive but inactive. They are in the Paradise (Bosom of Abraham), waiting for the resurrection.


Dead People who refused to believe in Jesus are sleeping in the Hades (KJV translated even this to Hell), waiting for the resurrection of Judgment. There is a big gap between 2 as we read Luke 16.

 

I hear it both ways and I have been to many funerals; have conducted a few myself. As far "looking down upon us," that is speculation. We don't know the capabilities of those in heaven because the Bible doesn't say so. But the Bible does indicate that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And since I believe the Bible, I believe when I die I will be with the Lord as the Bible says I will. I have no reason to doubt the Word of God. I am so sorry that you are insecure in your faith.

Understand this:
The spirit, both saved and unsaved alike is immortal. If you choose to accept Christ your spirit at the time of death will go to heaven to be with Christ. If you choose to reject Christ your spirit will go to Hell and be forever separated from God in a Christless eternity. The spirit is immortal and will live on no matter what.

Secondly, when speaking of the resurrection, the resurrection always refers to the body. So lets not confuse the body with the spirit when speaking of the resurrection. What will be raised at the time of the resurrection. The graves will be opened and the bodies will be raised. They will be reunited with their spirits. The spirit will take on a glorified body. The mechanics of all this is not ours to figure out and we don't have to. God is a God of miracles. We simply believe the Bible that what God has said He will accomplish, and that is good enough for me. Are you like the J.W. who says "I don't believe it because I don't understand it."

You are so right. The best common sense you could have is not to post long posts. The next ones will be deleted.
DHK

 

well thats a nice fairy tale but I prefer reading the Bible verses about the subject </font>[/QUOTE]...but of course, that is why I am so sure of my Faith is not baseless.

 

Basically, you are way off. How can you say that if one believes the Bible when it says..everlasting as it relates to hell and being under Gods judgement is the same as being just as God? If you are looking at the one word "everlasting", then this is your problem. Everlasting is used both for heaven and for hell. Remove one, you must remove the other.

This is baseless dogma on the part of SDA Church. Now would be a good time to leave this false teaching and hold to the Bible.


In Christ...James </font>[/QUOTE]BASELESS!!! hahahahah thats funny! I needed a good laugh today </font>[/QUOTE]

Laughing is not a anwser.

How can you say that if one believes the Bible when it says..everlasting as it relates to hell and being under Gods judgement is the same as being just as God?

Do you remove heaven from this "everlasting" list, or just hell?

 

Paul also said; I have a desire to depart for to be with Christ is far better. Also, the beggar was carried by angels to Abraham's bossom which is a type and figure of God. Also, them that are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. To bring something it has to be where you are and God is in the eternal Heaven. How much more do we need. Anyway, the Lord said comfort ye one another with these words and its by faith we are going to Heaven and its by faith the angels are coming for us when we die, and how you going to take that away by any Scripture or other means that I know of? Amen,

BBob

 

I am quite curious to hear about your answer to the following question because I find the contradiction there.


Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
Mercy please Claudia, these novella posts of yours just mean I scroll on by....just give us the summary if you want folk to read the posts.

And no my soul aint dead when I die,it is immortal unlike my physical remains. My soul will not sleep either, it will be judged as seen fit by my Divine and Dear Master.

At the second coming, my soul will be reunited with my body and will be remade with no imperfection in order to reside in Paradise in the presence of the Beautific Vision or be cast out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, you don't believe that you go to the Purgatory, right?
When will you spare time to go to Purgatory, if not?

 

Wonder why it say them that are "asleep" in Jesus will God "bring" with Him? Couldn't be talking about the body for it is already here though it might just be dust, but we already have a Scripture for that when the whole household of Israel arose. Bone to its bone, etc. When the body was complete it was still not alive until the prophet prophesied againg to the four winds and I believe the souls reentered the bodies and they stood up an exceeding great army.

 

St. Paul made a distinction between soul and spirit in Hebrews 4:12, "for the word of God is living and effective, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates even to the dividing line of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and judges the desires and thoughts of the heart." Some people use this verse to demonstrate a trichotomist view of man. Others use other verses to show a dichotomist view.

Yes, the spirit is capable of thought: For among men who knows a person's thoughts, except the man's own inner spirit? Similarly, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. I Corinthians 2:11 Modern Language Bible aka New Berkeley Version.

My denomination has a short article about "Soul and Spirit": www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=4659

 

Hi JFox1,
You read the article and then summarize it for us on the list. I like discussions concerning how you feel, not how your denomination feels. Fair enough? Thanks!

 

Here's a distinction I have seen in a book on emotions: (from my page dealing with the Trinity:

A good guideline in differentiating between the "soul" and "spirit" of man I have found in the works of the late Christian psychologist Conrad A. Baars (Feeling and Healing Your Emotions Plainfield, NJ, Logos International, 1979 and others). He divides our 12 basic emotions into "humane" emotions, (love/hate, desire/aversion, joy/sadness), which are ennobled by our "intellect" ("intuitive", or "contemplative" mind); thus making up our "heart; and also our "utilitarian" emotions (hope/despair, courage/fear, peace/anger), which aid our "reason" ("working" or "discursive" mind) thus making up our "mind". ("intuitive" comes from a Latin word meaning "look" or "view", and "intellect" from "to read between", both as opposed to simply "reasoning")

"Upwardly" he says, "the humane emotions are intimately linked with our spirit, and the utilitarian emotions with our reason" [i.e. soul]. Downward, both groups are linked with our body. (p.33). The humane emotions are from our "pleasure appetite" and cause inner movement within the psyche. They are our responses to what we perceive as "good" or "bad". Our intuitive mind also receives its knowledge from such sources as nature, the arts, faith, and directly from God through the Spirit, thus echoing the biblical statement. The utilitarian emotions of our "utility appetite" move us to action to make life better or respond to threats to our happiness or well being. Thus, they are concerned with mundane things; what is useful or harmful. It's the humane emotions that distinguish us from animals (hence, "humane"). While they certainly share the utilitarian emotions (anger, courage, etc) with us, the other set of emotions are not "ennobled" in them, being that they have instinct to guide them. Since we have those emotions, our instincts are undeveloped or "sophisticated" (its character altered).

So this gives us a good idea of how to distinguish our soul from our spirit: just think of the emotions associated with them!

 

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I firmly believe that for the Born-Again Believer to be absent from the Body is to be Present with the Lord...

Death will, if Jesus tarries, separate me from this mortal body... The Body or tabernacle I now dwell in will decay and rot away.

When Jesus Physically returns to this earth I will be given a New Body, an Immortal Body in which I will dwell for eternity.

This new Body will most likely be the same type as Jesus had. Of flesh and bone. Fully physical yet able to move at the speed of thought and appear in the midst of a locked room...

SMM