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DEAD MEANS DEAD!
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
Interesting to note that your veses mention Sleep or Asleep, or rise ( they rise because they were sleeping). </font>[/QUOTE]Eliyahu,
Yes notice the story of Lazarus when he had died. Jesus said Lazarus was ASLEEP. Then He said "Lazarus, come forth!" and Lazarus arose from his sleep.
Notice Lazarus didnt have any exciting stories to tell about his 4 days in heaven either... because he was asleep for those 4 days in the tomb.
ALSO notice what Mary said...she said "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." She DID NOT say well Im glad Lazarus is in Heaven now...
Again, notice Jesus said "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" ...
well you see, just because Jesus promised everlasting life... and said that the dead shall live, and just because He said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"-- this didnt mean Lazarus didnt die the natural death. Lazarus slept. Till Jesus resurrected him.
John 11:
1: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13: Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14: Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15: And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
16: Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
17: Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
18: Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
19: And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20: Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
21: Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22: But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23: Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24: Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27: She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
28: And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
29: As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
30: Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
31: The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
32: Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33: When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
34: And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
35: Jesus wept.
36: Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
37: And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
38: Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39: Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40: Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41: Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42: And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44: And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
JFox1: The soul and spirit are within us and separate from the body at death.
HP: What is the distinction you see between the soul and spirit? I realize that the words have many meanings in different contexts, but speaking of the inner makeup of man, and depicting it as incorporating both soul and spirit, what duties or phenomena do you see predicated of them individually that would distinguish one from the other? What gives rise to their separate and distinct diffferent existences? Take the intellect for example. It appeared to me that some at least try and separate the intellect from the spirit. Some have equated the spirit to simply ‘breath.’ When I have queried them as to the phenomena predicated of the soul, I just get a list of verses that either simply use the word soul in them, or mentions the words spirit and soul in the same verses. I see that as less than logical proof that the soul and spirit are not most generally speaking of simply the inner man, not two distinct and separate phenomenas within the inner man.
HP: What is the distinction you see between the soul and spirit? I realize that the words have many meanings in different contexts, but speaking of the inner makeup of man, and depicting it as incorporating both soul and spirit, what duties or phenomena do you see predicated of them individually that would distinguish one from the other? What gives rise to their separate and distinct diffferent existences? Take the intellect for example. It appeared to me that some at least try and separate the intellect from the spirit. Some have equated the spirit to simply ‘breath.’ When I have queried them as to the phenomena predicated of the soul, I just get a list of verses that either simply use the word soul in them, or mentions the words spirit and soul in the same verses. I see that as less than logical proof that the soul and spirit are not most generally speaking of simply the inner man, not two distinct and separate phenomenas within the inner man.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Jauthur 001: HP and or Bob,
I am a Calvinist. Therefore you know how I will reply to the 1st part. You know and may have read the verses I will post on this. In short election removes the blindness placed on us by sin, so that we can have faith.
As to the other side of the fence, post me the verses you would like me to address and I will try my best. Right off the top of my head I can think of 1 John 1-3 and also in Romans, Paul hits on this a bit. Any other passages?
Hi Jarthur,
Please forgive me for being so dull. I have put in too many long hours today. Refresh my memory as to the topic you are referring to. We have been all over the place on different issues, and I desire to answer in response to the one you are speaking about if you will help me. Thanks!
I am a Calvinist. Therefore you know how I will reply to the 1st part. You know and may have read the verses I will post on this. In short election removes the blindness placed on us by sin, so that we can have faith.
As to the other side of the fence, post me the verses you would like me to address and I will try my best. Right off the top of my head I can think of 1 John 1-3 and also in Romans, Paul hits on this a bit. Any other passages?
Hi Jarthur,
Please forgive me for being so dull. I have put in too many long hours today. Refresh my memory as to the topic you are referring to. We have been all over the place on different issues, and I desire to answer in response to the one you are speaking about if you will help me. Thanks!
Is a sleeping man dead or alive?
It is a matter of wording, and I feel you should correct it.
If Bible says "sleep" then you better say "sleep" instead of dead.
Dead people( who believed in Jesus) are sleeping, they are alive but inactive. They are in the Paradise (Bosom of Abraham), waiting for the resurrection.
Dead People who refused to believe in Jesus are sleeping in the Hades (KJV translated even this to Hell), waiting for the resurrection of Judgment. There is a big gap between 2 as we read Luke 16.
I hear it both ways and I have been to many funerals; have conducted a few myself. As far "looking down upon us," that is speculation. We don't know the capabilities of those in heaven because the Bible doesn't say so. But the Bible does indicate that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And since I believe the Bible, I believe when I die I will be with the Lord as the Bible says I will. I have no reason to doubt the Word of God. I am so sorry that you are insecure in your faith.
Understand this:
The spirit, both saved and unsaved alike is immortal. If you choose to accept Christ your spirit at the time of death will go to heaven to be with Christ. If you choose to reject Christ your spirit will go to Hell and be forever separated from God in a Christless eternity. The spirit is immortal and will live on no matter what.
Secondly, when speaking of the resurrection, the resurrection always refers to the body. So lets not confuse the body with the spirit when speaking of the resurrection. What will be raised at the time of the resurrection. The graves will be opened and the bodies will be raised. They will be reunited with their spirits. The spirit will take on a glorified body. The mechanics of all this is not ours to figure out and we don't have to. God is a God of miracles. We simply believe the Bible that what God has said He will accomplish, and that is good enough for me. Are you like the J.W. who says "I don't believe it because I don't understand it."
You are so right. The best common sense you could have is not to post long posts. The next ones will be deleted.
DHK
Jarthur001
Active Member
Basically, you are way off. How can you say that if one believes the Bible when it says..everlasting as it relates to hell and being under Gods judgement is the same as being just as God? If you are looking at the one word "everlasting", then this is your problem. Everlasting is used both for heaven and for hell. Remove one, you must remove the other.
This is baseless dogma on the part of SDA Church. Now would be a good time to leave this false teaching and hold to the Bible.
In Christ...James </font>[/QUOTE]BASELESS!!! hahahahah thats funny! I needed a good laugh today </font>[/QUOTE]
Laughing is not a anwser.
How can you say that if one believes the Bible when it says..everlasting as it relates to hell and being under Gods judgement is the same as being just as God?
Do you remove heaven from this "everlasting" list, or just hell?
Brother Bob
New Member
Paul also said; I have a desire to depart for to be with Christ is far better. Also, the beggar was carried by angels to Abraham's bossom which is a type and figure of God. Also, them that are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. To bring something it has to be where you are and God is in the eternal Heaven. How much more do we need. Anyway, the Lord said comfort ye one another with these words and its by faith we are going to Heaven and its by faith the angels are coming for us when we die, and how you going to take that away by any Scripture or other means that I know of? Amen,
BBob
BBob
I hear it both ways and I have been to many funerals; have conducted a few myself. As far "looking down upon us," that is speculation. We don't know the capabilities of those in heaven because the Bible doesn't say so. But the Bible does indicate that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And since I believe the Bible, I believe when I die I will be with the Lord as the Bible says I will. I have no reason to doubt the Word of God. I am so sorry that you are insecure in your faith.
Understand this:
The spirit, both saved and unsaved alike is immortal. If you choose to accept Christ your spirit at the time of death will go to heaven to be with Christ. If you choose to reject Christ your spirit will go to Hell and be forever separated from God in a Christless eternity. The spirit is immortal and will live on no matter what.
Secondly, when speaking of the resurrection, the resurrection always refers to the body. So lets not confuse the body with the spirit when speaking of the resurrection. What will be raised at the time of the resurrection. The graves will be opened and the bodies will be raised. They will be reunited with their spirits. The spirit will take on a glorified body. The mechanics of all this is not ours to figure out and we don't have to. God is a God of miracles. We simply believe the Bible that what God has said He will accomplish, and that is good enough for me. Are you like the J.W. who says "I don't believe it because I don't understand it."
You are so right. The best common sense you could have is not to post long posts. The next ones will be deleted.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Kamaroso posted the exact same post not long ago and you said nothing about it - in fact he does that all the time. I didnt think you would have one standard for me and a different one for everyone else. So I assumed it wouldnt matter to you if I posted it because you treated everyone fairly.
Here is where he posted it:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3707/23.html?
[ May 23, 2006, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
Basically, you are way off. How can you say that if one believes the Bible when it says..everlasting as it relates to hell and being under Gods judgement is the same as being just as God? If you are looking at the one word "everlasting", then this is your problem. Everlasting is used both for heaven and for hell. Remove one, you must remove the other.
This is baseless dogma on the part of SDA Church. Now would be a good time to leave this false teaching and hold to the Bible.
In Christ...James </font>[/QUOTE]BASELESS!!! hahahahah thats funny! I needed a good laugh today </font>[/QUOTE]
Laughing is not a anwser.
How can you say that if one believes the Bible when it says..everlasting as it relates to hell and being under Gods judgement is the same as being just as God?
Do you remove heaven from this "everlasting" list, or just hell? </font>[/QUOTE]I have addressed that already in my topic about hellfire... you can go read it there.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3982.html?
2Thes:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
It would be difficult to have everlasting torment and everlasting destruction at the same time for the wicked, no?
So obviously we have to compare scripture with scripture.
[ May 23, 2006, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
I am quite curious to hear about your answer to the following question because I find the contradiction there.
Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
Mercy please Claudia, these novella posts of yours just mean I scroll on by....just give us the summary if you want folk to read the posts.
And no my soul aint dead when I die,it is immortal unlike my physical remains. My soul will not sleep either, it will be judged as seen fit by my Divine and Dear Master.
At the second coming, my soul will be reunited with my body and will be remade with no imperfection in order to reside in Paradise in the presence of the Beautific Vision or be cast out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you don't believe that you go to the Purgatory, right?
When will you spare time to go to Purgatory, if not?
Brother Bob
New Member
Wonder why it say them that are "asleep" in Jesus will God "bring" with Him? Couldn't be talking about the body for it is already here though it might just be dust, but we already have a Scripture for that when the whole household of Israel arose. Bone to its bone, etc. When the body was complete it was still not alive until the prophet prophesied againg to the four winds and I believe the souls reentered the bodies and they stood up an exceeding great army.
St. Paul made a distinction between soul and spirit in Hebrews 4:12, "for the word of God is living and effective, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates even to the dividing line of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and judges the desires and thoughts of the heart." Some people use this verse to demonstrate a trichotomist view of man. Others use other verses to show a dichotomist view.
Yes, the spirit is capable of thought: For among men who knows a person's thoughts, except the man's own inner spirit? Similarly, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. I Corinthians 2:11 Modern Language Bible aka New Berkeley Version.
My denomination has a short article about "Soul and Spirit": www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=4659
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Hi JFox1,
You read the article and then summarize it for us on the list. I like discussions concerning how you feel, not how your denomination feels. Fair enough? Thanks!
You read the article and then summarize it for us on the list. I like discussions concerning how you feel, not how your denomination feels. Fair enough? Thanks!
Here's a distinction I have seen in a book on emotions: (from my page dealing with the Trinity:
A good guideline in differentiating between the "soul" and "spirit" of man I have found in the works of the late Christian psychologist Conrad A. Baars (Feeling and Healing Your Emotions Plainfield, NJ, Logos International, 1979 and others). He divides our 12 basic emotions into "humane" emotions, (love/hate, desire/aversion, joy/sadness), which are ennobled by our "intellect" ("intuitive", or "contemplative" mind); thus making up our "heart; and also our "utilitarian" emotions (hope/despair, courage/fear, peace/anger), which aid our "reason" ("working" or "discursive" mind) thus making up our "mind". ("intuitive" comes from a Latin word meaning "look" or "view", and "intellect" from "to read between", both as opposed to simply "reasoning")
"Upwardly" he says, "the humane emotions are intimately linked with our spirit, and the utilitarian emotions with our reason" [i.e. soul]. Downward, both groups are linked with our body. (p.33). The humane emotions are from our "pleasure appetite" and cause inner movement within the psyche. They are our responses to what we perceive as "good" or "bad". Our intuitive mind also receives its knowledge from such sources as nature, the arts, faith, and directly from God through the Spirit, thus echoing the biblical statement. The utilitarian emotions of our "utility appetite" move us to action to make life better or respond to threats to our happiness or well being. Thus, they are concerned with mundane things; what is useful or harmful. It's the humane emotions that distinguish us from animals (hence, "humane"). While they certainly share the utilitarian emotions (anger, courage, etc) with us, the other set of emotions are not "ennobled" in them, being that they have instinct to guide them. Since we have those emotions, our instincts are undeveloped or "sophisticated" (its character altered).
So this gives us a good idea of how to distinguish our soul from our spirit: just think of the emotions associated with them!
so are some of you trying to say that even though the Bible clearly says that men SLEEPS in the grave till the second coming of Christ--- and that "the dead know not anything"... that his "spirit" with feelings and emotions is up there in heaven floating around aware of what is going on around it? and that at the second coming of Christ God is going to stick that spirit back into the sleeping body? or what in the world are you all getting at anyway?
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I firmly believe that for the Born-Again Believer to be absent from the Body is to be Present with the Lord...
Death will, if Jesus tarries, separate me from this mortal body... The Body or tabernacle I now dwell in will decay and rot away.
When Jesus Physically returns to this earth I will be given a New Body, an Immortal Body in which I will dwell for eternity.
This new Body will most likely be the same type as Jesus had. Of flesh and bone. Fully physical yet able to move at the speed of thought and appear in the midst of a locked room...
SMM
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I firmly believe that for the Born-Again Believer to be absent from the Body is to be Present with the Lord...
Death will, if Jesus tarries, separate me from this mortal body... The Body or tabernacle I now dwell in will decay and rot away.
When Jesus Physically returns to this earth I will be given a New Body, an Immortal Body in which I will dwell for eternity.
This new Body will most likely be the same type as Jesus had. Of flesh and bone. Fully physical yet able to move at the speed of thought and appear in the midst of a locked room...
SMM