Featured The Sovereignty of God in the life of Joseph

Austin the God of the bible is in control and has allowed for mans free will choices. The God as Calvinists see Him is afraid to allow man to make any choices. Who do you think has a higher view of God. Hint it is not the Calvinist.

 

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Martin you say The writers of the 1689 Confession have specifically refuted the question.

I still have not seen a rational answer to how God can decree freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass and yet the LBCF & WCF & Calvinists say He does not author sin. Does sin not fall under ALL THINGS?

Why are you so determined to defend those men yet you will throw God under the bus.

I do not expect you to answer this post but you should take a serious look at the foundation of your Calvinist views.

 

Indeed, God is in control. All of man's decisions fall under his preview. No decision of man could come about without God allowing. A good example is Balaam. Balaam attempted to make a decision in which God said "No." Balaam therefore could not do as he willed. His will was only free to act within the confines of God's parameters and no farther. This is true for all humans. Human decisions always fall within the parameters God defines and are not free to act beyond that parameter. Thus we state that free will does not exist. If it did, then man would determine his own parameters. Man does not and cannot do such a thing. Man's choices are always under the determined will of God.

Are you now ready to admit your misunderstanding? Or are you still going to promote the untenable theory of free will?

 

So glad you finally admit what I have been saying all along.

As you have stated "Human decisions always fall within the parameters God defines and are not free to act beyond that parameter. Thus we state that free will does not exist." This is your clear statement of the false Calvinist theology re Gods' sovereignty.

If as you have stated so clearly, man has no free will then it does not matter what parameters God has set, we still have to do all that He has decreed which as you have shown has to include sin. Your idea of how God has to be to be sovereign is the trap you place yourself in.

When will you admit that God does not have to control all choices in order to be sovereign. You are afraid to let God be God.

 

Martin I must admit the I am surprised that you would miss quote me like you did. When you take words out of context then you have miss quoted. Since you do not want to have an honest exchange of views i will bit you adieu.



Martin I have to admit I thought

 

It means that man has a will, but that will is not free. It is held within the confines of its capacity. Thus, humans are not capable of choosing God as their Savior. Why? Because humans are in rebellion against God by their very nature. Humans, who are dead in sin, must be made alive by God in order to be saved. Dead people do not have the capacity to make themselves alive. They have no free will.
A chicken in a cage has no capacity to function outside of the cage... it's in a cage. No matter how hard it tries... it's still in a cage. Its will is not free.
Humans are enslaved in sin. They are not free. There will is not free.

 

Austin you see total depravity as total inability. But you have overlooked Joh 18:8-9 the Holy Spirit convicts, Act_17:27 we can seek and perhaps reach out for Him, Joh_7:17 we can choose to do Gods' will, or Heb_11:6 those that seek Him must believe He exists. All these indicate free will. Man has the God given free will so that they can and some do freely seek and find Him.
God dignifies us with free will, the power to make decisions of our own rather than having God or fate predetermine what we do.

God created humans in his image. (Gen_1:26) Unlike animals, which act mainly on instinct, we resemble our Creator in our capacity to display such qualities as love and justice. And like our Creator, we have free will.

To a great extent, we can determine our future. The Bible encourages us to “choose life . . . by listening to [God’s] voice,” that is, by choosing to obey his commands. (Deu_30:19-20) This offer would be meaningless, even cruel, if we lacked free will. Instead of forcing us to do what he says, God warmly appeals to us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”—Isa_48:18.

Our success or failure is not determined by fate. Free will is a precious gift from God, for it lets us love him with our “whole heart”—because we want to.—Mat_22:37.

God is in control/sovereign but He does not have to be controlling via meticulous decrees.

 

Silverhair, you have created a philosophy wrapped around a concept, but the verses you reference do not teach free will. In fact you have created prooftexts, out of context, to support your pretext.

I encourage you to look at the context of all the verses you have claimed and show us how the context is about free will.

I have shown you Balaam. He could do nothing outside of the determined will of God. I can point to Satan who had to receive God's permission to touch Job. Look at Habakkuk and see that God raised up the Chaldeans to do His will.
While God gives you these glimpses of His Sovereignty, you seem to brush them away and think that God doesn't do this with all His creation. You seem to think like a Deist who imagined God as sleeping.

 

Austin is not interested in what the Bible actually says, so best not to waste your time with him

 

LOL

sbw isn't interested in the whole of scripture, which is why he looks for prooftexts he can "adjust."

 

I have noticed that Austin is very good at saying other people get it wrong but has a real problem seeing where the bible shows that he is wrong. But that does seem to be a major problem for many of those that follow Calvin. Oh well.

 

I can read what the Bible says. I disagree with your philosophy which you have created to force the Bible to fit you.

 

I am not questioning if God can and does arrange things to happen. You still will not answer my question. How do you bring these two contradictory ideas together?

The LBCF states:
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Martin you say The writers of the 1689 Confession have specifically refuted the question.

No Martin all they have done is say on one hand God decrees ALL THINGS then say, oops can't have Him responsible for sin so we better add that He is not. They could say God decrees all things or have Him not the author of sin but not both in the same sentence. The logic of the whole sentence is wrong.

They start with the premise that sovereign means absolute divine meticulous control. But that is not what the bible shows. God has given man a free will, if you say man has no free will then the only other option is that God controls all things and thus controls and causes all sin.

Martin I can see that you have to defend your Calvinist view and the LBCF but I have looked them over and what I see are God dishonoring texts.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I am a baptist from a line of baptist ministers and I have always be taught that God, the Holy Spirit, will guide me into a clear understanding of His word. Our salvation does not depend upon following Calvin or anyone else. We are saved because of our faith in Christ Jesus.

When we stand before Jesus at the judgement we will be asked the same question Peter was. "Who do you say that I am?" I am sure we will both answer the same way.

 

I don't understand Silverhairs obsession with questioning how God can be fully Sovereign and not be the author of sin. Is it that he requires God to give him all understanding of the entirety of God?
Paul is perfectly comfortable with paradox as is Jesus himself.

 

Since none of you will answer a simple question re Gods decree and your not seeming to realize it would make Him the author of sin.

Here are just a few quotes for you to look over, then tell me that Calvinism does not make God the author of sin/evil.

[N]othing happens accidentally or apart from the just decree of God” ~Theodore Beza
Muller, Christ and the Decree, 84.

“If God had not determined its existence, it could not have had being; unless we suppose sin to be greater than God.” ~William Tucker
Tucker, Predestination, L. xvii, 124, Source: Benson, The Revival and Rejection of an Old Traditional Heresy, 92.

“[N]othing happens accidentally or apart from the just decree of God” ~Theodore Beza
Muller, Christ and the Decree, 84

“If God did not foreordain all things, then he could not know the future. God foreknows and knows all things because He decreed all things to be.” ~Arthur W. Pink
West, The Baptist Examiner, 5.

“Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs ‘by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.’” ~William Shedd

Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 37.

“The Sovereignty of God over all, and his in-dependency, clearly shew, that whatever is done in time is according to his decrees in eternity.” ~John Gill
Gill, A Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity, 173.

“God did certainly decree from the beginning everything which should befall the race of man.” ~John Calvin
John Calvin, Concerning the Secret Providence of God, 266, Source: Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, 288.

Jonathan Edwards states the logical conclusion that, “The eternal decree is the cause of the necessary futurition of evil acts, for the acts inevitably follow on the decree.”He also says, “If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin.”
Jonathan Edwards, On the Decrees, Book I, Ch. 3, 125, Source: Benson, The Revival and Rejection of an Old Traditional Heresy, 41.

I am sure you will try to twist these quotes to make Calvinism sound virtuous but the reality is that what it shows is that Calvinism makes God the primary cause of sin and evil.

As I said before Calvinists seem to be more concerned about protecting the LBCF and Calvinism than they are about the character of God. Sad really.

 

Your assertion, that a fully Sovereign God makes God the author and cause of sin is a creation of your own philosophy. You cannot have a Sovereign God when you demand your own sovereignty via human free will that makes man the ruler of his universe.

 

To your bolded question...I suggest it is the pride of man that will not accept God's sovereignty. Even as redeemed children our flesh naturally fights to rule and place God in a box of our own making. When man cannot box God in it leads to subtle accusation of God that he is the cause of human sin.