...Adam as a type of Christ,
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Did Jesus have Mary’s DNA?
- Thread starter canadyjd
- Start date
...Adam as a type of Christ,
Matthew gives the genealogy through Joseph. Was Joseph's seed added to Mary's egg without them having sex?
Neither Galatians nor Genesis are referring to genetics. God did fulfill all prophesy and did come as fully human. He was born of a woman. He was incarnated. Does God have sperm that he could implant into Mary's egg? God is not a sexual being. He has no need for offspring. In both passages we see God speaking truth, but there is no indication that God used Mary's corrupt nature to create an incorrupt human who was not under the curse.
Galatians 4:1-7 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Genesis 3:11-19 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
37818
Well-Known Member
Mary's DNA being part of Jesus' DNA in Him really being a decendant of David according to the promises. In His incarnation being really human.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Where in scripture does it say Mary was a descendent of Davis? Doesn’t scripture identify Joseph (Mary’s husband) as a descendent of David and fulfilling the prophecy the Messiah would be a descendent of David?
thanks for the comment
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Exactly. The fulfillment of the Davidic genealogy came through Joseph, not Mary.
The more I consider this idea, the more it makes sense.
It removes the notion of a divine/human hybrid. It removes the notion that Mary had to be born “sinless” (immaculate conception).. It is compatible with Jesus as the 2nd Adam. it in no way makes Jesus less human than us. It doesn’t contradict any passage I’ve seen yet.
A very interesting thought. Thanks again
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Don’t see that at all. No one denies the full humanity of Jesus.
And, as already pointed out, the genealogy of Jesus is trace through Joseph, not Mary.
Thanks for the comment
peace to you
Absolute nonsense! Jesus was Abraham's seed!!!!! And that blood line came through Mary!!! Stop posting unbiblical twaddle. See Galatians 3:16
Try reading the bible!!! See Luke 3:23
Mary was a virgin, thus Jesus is not the biological seed of Joseph. Thus the biological seed of Abraham is via the ancestry of Mary.
And we do not need to rewrite all those verses where Mary is identified as the mother of Jesus to say the "surrogate" mother of Jesus.
Why a biological descendant and not a "legal descendant?" Acts 2:30, if accurately translated reads, "one of the fruit of His loins."
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Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5
It appears to me that all people are brought forth in iniquity, because, all people, in woman, are conceived in sin.
Can a virgin be conceived? In the year Jesus was brought forth and conceived could a virgin be conceived? Why are we told this: Matt 1:24,25 And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
Was that necessary to being brought forth, not being in iniquity? In order to be named Jesus?
adulterate
Should the first virgin have brought forth the Son of God.
Now read Genesis 4:1 & 2 in many translations and ask again.
Also consider the creation was complete back in Gen 2:1-3 and the following is said considering that creation; Rom 8:20
For the creation (was subjected) to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Now don't ask what did man do but ask what was God doing and why was he doing it?
In Hope
Acts 15:18
What condition is the world in today and why? How relative to all things is Rev 20:1-3 Where was the one of verse 2 Rev 20 when God subjected the creation to futility, in HOPE?
It appears to me that all people are brought forth in iniquity, because, all people, in woman, are conceived in sin.
Can a virgin be conceived? In the year Jesus was brought forth and conceived could a virgin be conceived? Why are we told this: Matt 1:24,25 And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
Was that necessary to being brought forth, not being in iniquity? In order to be named Jesus?
adulterate
- transitive verb
To make impure by adding extraneous, improper, or inferior ingredients.
Should the first virgin have brought forth the Son of God.
Now read Genesis 4:1 & 2 in many translations and ask again.
Also consider the creation was complete back in Gen 2:1-3 and the following is said considering that creation; Rom 8:20
For the creation (was subjected) to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Now don't ask what did man do but ask what was God doing and why was he doing it?
In Hope
Acts 15:18
What condition is the world in today and why? How relative to all things is Rev 20:1-3 Where was the one of verse 2 Rev 20 when God subjected the creation to futility, in HOPE?
Jesus fully human, but not touched by the fall, due to his Virgin birth!
Once again the bogus claim the spiritual fall of humanity is passed along biologically. Once again our corruption was spiritual. Full Stop
This topic touches on numerous areas of Christology, anthropology, sanctification, etc., that it is too large to cover in a short post. I do not have the time to spell out all of the implications, but I offer these thoughts.
Observations:
Some presuppositions of this viewpoint:
1. Moral evil (sin) is located in the body – a tenet of both Docetism and Gnosticism
2. God would be somehow stained by entering into the human line, instead of the possibility of the human line being redeemed by the entry of God.
3. The unborn, infants, and young children are physically morally evil and potentially out of the realm of redemption.
4. Our DNA, or at least the morally evil part of our DNA, will have to be replaced in order to be sanctified.
5. If we could locate the morally evil part of our DNA, and genetically remove it, we would be holy before God.
6. If ALL of our DNA is morally evil, then our present bodies cannot be resurrected and be morally perfect.
Stated viewpoints:
1. Moral evil (sin) is literally coded in human DNA.
2. Mary’s flesh (like all of fallen humanity) was corrupted and therefore was not redeemable for God’s purpose.
The biblical witness:
To those who thought lust and adultery were bound up in their body, Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-30 (NASB)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Jesus dramatized the foolishness of blaming one’s eye or one’s hand for adultery. He confronted the unstated “I couldn’t help it” argument by suggesting if they truly could not control their eyes or their hands, they should violently remove them from their bodies so that they could be pure.
This suggests that even fallen humans have a measure of moral control over their bodies, and that the body itself is not the issue. If we have no choice because of our bodies, then we really have no responsibility for sins. Like some of the Gnostics believed, we should simply let our bodies sin and let our spirits be "pure."
Genesis 3:15 (NASB)
And I will make enemies
Of you and the woman,
And of your offspring and her Descendant;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise Him on the heel.”
I habitually use the NASB translation, and they translate “seed of a woman” as “her Descendant” which I think is a better translation.
The root Hebrew word, זֶרַע, is fundamentally the word for “seed” that is translated a lot of different ways according to context. For instance, the NASB translates it as child[ren], descendant(s), descendants, family, grain, offspring, seed, etc.
A seed literally holds the fundamental genetics and potential of a plant or tree. The ovum literally holds half of the fundamental DNA and potential for a human being. As it has already been pointed out, the “seed of a woman” is quite a bit different than a woman being a surrogate for someone else. There would be no reason for God to include the “seed” of Eve in His promise to destroy the serpent if He did not intend to use a descendant of her ‘DNA’ to do it.
But here is where this viewpoint REALLY falls apart:
Hebrews 2:14-18
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For clearly, He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Notice two things:
1. He (Jesus) partook of the “flesh and blood” of the ones who were under the power of death and subject to slavery (that’s fallen humanity) to destroy the devil. “He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.” IF JESUS WAS NOT A PHYSICAL DESCENDANT OF MARY, HE COULD NOT SERVE AS HIGH PRIEST AND MAKE PROPITIATION FOR US!
2. The last sentence then explains that taking on the “flesh and blood” of humanity through Mary gives His the ability to come to our aid in the time of temptation, since He was tempted like we are.
The writer of Hebrews continues a bit later:
Hebrews 4:14-5:10
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. Therefore, let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need. For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of people in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is clothed in weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins for himself, as well as for the people. And no one takes the honor for himself, but receives it when he is called by God, just as Aaron also was. So too Christ did not glorify Himself in becoming a high priest, but it was He who said to Him, “You are My Son, Today I have fathered You”; just as He also says in another passage, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” In the days of His humanity, He offered up both prayers and pleas with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His devout behavior. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him, being designated by God as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Notice three things:
1. Jesus was tempted in all ways, just as we are, yet without sin. You may have never thought of this before, but Jesus was born in a sinful world, among people with a bent toward sin. Jesus was apparently able to resist temptation (with God’s help) as the second Adam, and “learned obedience” (Hebrews 5:8) as he grew “in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). Through this process, he was “perfected” and became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:8-9). When I write, “learned obedience,” I am not saying Jesus sinned as a child and learned to stop, but that He trusted the Father and was able to resist temptation from His earliest days. SO JESUS COULD HAVE BEEN BORN OF MARY’S ‘DNA’ AND STILL BE MORALLY PERFECT. Just as Jesus touched the unclean leper and made the leper clean, God can enter fallen humanity and make Him morally perfect.
2. The writer of Hebrews again emphasizes, the availability of Jesus to dispense mercy and grace for assistance in the time of temptation.
3. The writer of Hebrews points out that the high priest is selected from the people as a representative to offer gifts and sacrifices to God, and mediate those in ignorance and error, since he understands the human condition (being human himself). God selected Jesus as a high priest according to the pattern of Melchizedek, the mysterious priest of God who offered Abram/Abraham bread and wine (Genesis 14:18-19). If Jesus was not selected “from among men,” as one truly representative of fallen humanity, then He could not be our high priest.
Observations:
Some presuppositions of this viewpoint:
1. Moral evil (sin) is located in the body – a tenet of both Docetism and Gnosticism
2. God would be somehow stained by entering into the human line, instead of the possibility of the human line being redeemed by the entry of God.
3. The unborn, infants, and young children are physically morally evil and potentially out of the realm of redemption.
4. Our DNA, or at least the morally evil part of our DNA, will have to be replaced in order to be sanctified.
5. If we could locate the morally evil part of our DNA, and genetically remove it, we would be holy before God.
6. If ALL of our DNA is morally evil, then our present bodies cannot be resurrected and be morally perfect.
Stated viewpoints:
1. Moral evil (sin) is literally coded in human DNA.
2. Mary’s flesh (like all of fallen humanity) was corrupted and therefore was not redeemable for God’s purpose.
The biblical witness:
To those who thought lust and adultery were bound up in their body, Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-30 (NASB)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Jesus dramatized the foolishness of blaming one’s eye or one’s hand for adultery. He confronted the unstated “I couldn’t help it” argument by suggesting if they truly could not control their eyes or their hands, they should violently remove them from their bodies so that they could be pure.
This suggests that even fallen humans have a measure of moral control over their bodies, and that the body itself is not the issue. If we have no choice because of our bodies, then we really have no responsibility for sins. Like some of the Gnostics believed, we should simply let our bodies sin and let our spirits be "pure."
Genesis 3:15 (NASB)
And I will make enemies
Of you and the woman,
And of your offspring and her Descendant;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise Him on the heel.”
I habitually use the NASB translation, and they translate “seed of a woman” as “her Descendant” which I think is a better translation.
The root Hebrew word, זֶרַע, is fundamentally the word for “seed” that is translated a lot of different ways according to context. For instance, the NASB translates it as child[ren], descendant(s), descendants, family, grain, offspring, seed, etc.
A seed literally holds the fundamental genetics and potential of a plant or tree. The ovum literally holds half of the fundamental DNA and potential for a human being. As it has already been pointed out, the “seed of a woman” is quite a bit different than a woman being a surrogate for someone else. There would be no reason for God to include the “seed” of Eve in His promise to destroy the serpent if He did not intend to use a descendant of her ‘DNA’ to do it.
But here is where this viewpoint REALLY falls apart:
Hebrews 2:14-18
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For clearly, He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Notice two things:
1. He (Jesus) partook of the “flesh and blood” of the ones who were under the power of death and subject to slavery (that’s fallen humanity) to destroy the devil. “He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.” IF JESUS WAS NOT A PHYSICAL DESCENDANT OF MARY, HE COULD NOT SERVE AS HIGH PRIEST AND MAKE PROPITIATION FOR US!
2. The last sentence then explains that taking on the “flesh and blood” of humanity through Mary gives His the ability to come to our aid in the time of temptation, since He was tempted like we are.
The writer of Hebrews continues a bit later:
Hebrews 4:14-5:10
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. Therefore, let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need. For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of people in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is clothed in weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins for himself, as well as for the people. And no one takes the honor for himself, but receives it when he is called by God, just as Aaron also was. So too Christ did not glorify Himself in becoming a high priest, but it was He who said to Him, “You are My Son, Today I have fathered You”; just as He also says in another passage, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” In the days of His humanity, He offered up both prayers and pleas with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His devout behavior. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him, being designated by God as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Notice three things:
1. Jesus was tempted in all ways, just as we are, yet without sin. You may have never thought of this before, but Jesus was born in a sinful world, among people with a bent toward sin. Jesus was apparently able to resist temptation (with God’s help) as the second Adam, and “learned obedience” (Hebrews 5:8) as he grew “in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). Through this process, he was “perfected” and became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:8-9). When I write, “learned obedience,” I am not saying Jesus sinned as a child and learned to stop, but that He trusted the Father and was able to resist temptation from His earliest days. SO JESUS COULD HAVE BEEN BORN OF MARY’S ‘DNA’ AND STILL BE MORALLY PERFECT. Just as Jesus touched the unclean leper and made the leper clean, God can enter fallen humanity and make Him morally perfect.
2. The writer of Hebrews again emphasizes, the availability of Jesus to dispense mercy and grace for assistance in the time of temptation.
3. The writer of Hebrews points out that the high priest is selected from the people as a representative to offer gifts and sacrifices to God, and mediate those in ignorance and error, since he understands the human condition (being human himself). God selected Jesus as a high priest according to the pattern of Melchizedek, the mysterious priest of God who offered Abram/Abraham bread and wine (Genesis 14:18-19). If Jesus was not selected “from among men,” as one truly representative of fallen humanity, then He could not be our high priest.
I'm guessing this is simply very poorly worded, but Jesus was certainly "touched" by the fall. He lived in a fallen word, He lived among fallen people. His own body was subject to exhaustion and death. He was crucified by a fallen world. And He is redeeming a fallen world.
37818
Well-Known Member
With the understand Luke gave Mary's genealogy, Luke 3:31, ". . . which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, . . ." [Luke 3:23-38.]
Romans 1:3-4
The Good News is about his Son. In his earthly life he was born into King David’s family line, and he was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is Jesus Christ our Lord. (NLT)
This issue is not a hill on which I would die. Certainly God can do anything and use anything to fulfill His promises. When I consider Jesus being the 2nd Adam, I see this as God making Himself human by incarnation into Mary. I have no "ism" for this thought. I merely look at scripture and consider. I am more than happy to be shown by great theological minds how my thought is in error. At this present time I see the consideration as plausible. I share Romans 1 as another passage that does not go against my proposition.
The Good News is about his Son. In his earthly life he was born into King David’s family line, and he was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is Jesus Christ our Lord. (NLT)
This issue is not a hill on which I would die. Certainly God can do anything and use anything to fulfill His promises. When I consider Jesus being the 2nd Adam, I see this as God making Himself human by incarnation into Mary. I have no "ism" for this thought. I merely look at scripture and consider. I am more than happy to be shown by great theological minds how my thought is in error. At this present time I see the consideration as plausible. I share Romans 1 as another passage that does not go against my proposition.
Meant that he did not received in conception the fallen sin nature that we all in adam received, and he was sinless in his human nature!
Jesus did not have our sin nature as he was sinless humanity due to the Virgin birth!