Creating Your Own God

Van said:

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

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Though infants in the Lord, they are regenerate. 1 Cor. 3:1 is not addressing the unregenerate. The unregenerate cannot be in Christ. It is an impossibility.

The regenerate, whether at the infant stage or the meat stage have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

That cannot be said of the unregenerate.

The regenerate have the Holy Spirit. They are in Christ.

No one outside of Christ is regenerate.

Do not wrest the Scriptures to further your ends Van.

Van said:

The context of Romans 3 indicates the idea is when a person is sinning, they are not seeking God. Thus Paul uses the fact that we do not seek God all of the time to prove we are all under sin.

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I'm leaving off the basis of your post (although I agree with what you are saying about the methods used by Christians who may be wrong about what they believe a scripture to be saying).

What I wanted to say is: Thanks. I've just seen a link in the above part of what you said in your post, to John 3:19:

18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

So they choose to remain in sin. I believe it's like the ark: While Noah was building it, the door was open for anyone to enter for the entire time until God shut the door:120 years before the flood, God judged the world, and the world was found guilty:

Genesis 6:3
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

Genesis 6:5-7
"And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them."

The ark of salvation:

Genesis 6:13-14a
"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of Cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..."

The world, in the days of Noah, was not judged on the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier. God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been decreed, but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.

The ark is a picture of Christ:

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12:9-11
"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven,

Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

John 3:17
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

Sorry for changing the main subject of your post (which I understand and agree with regarding the methods used by some Christians who want to oppress any view or understanding of any scripture that is contrary to their own).

Van said:

The issue is does no one ever, at any time, seek God, as do the people of Matthew 23:13? The biblical answer is some people some of the time do seek God.

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Deuternonomy 4
29 But if you shall seek the LORD your God from there, you shall find Him, if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jeremiah 29
13 And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Deternonomy 13
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deuteronomy 30
6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your seed, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

They had not even been regenerated yet when the above things were said to them.

Jesus said,

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

So I believe that the Holy Spirit calls all those who Christ died for,and they are:

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

But

John 6
36 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.
38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

Because

John 3
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

I don't believe the scriptures teach us that only some were predestined unto salvation, because:

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

I believe the scriptures teach us that Adam (mankind) was predestined for salvation in Christ, but only those who hear, believe, repent and submit are found in the ark. So walking through the door of the Ark of our salvation into the Ark of our salvation = responding to the witness of the Holy Spirit with hearing, believing, repenting and submitting. But many humans choose not to, because they "loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil."

RipponRedeaux said:

Though infants in the Lord, they are regenerate. 1 Cor. 3:1 is not addressing the unregenerate. The unregenerate cannot be in Christ. It is an impossibility.

The regenerate, whether at the infant stage or the meat stage have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

That cannot be said of the unregenerate.

The regenerate have the Holy Spirit. They are in Christ.

No one outside of Christ is regenerate.

Do not wrest the Scriptures to further your ends Van.

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Since infants in Christ have not yet grown in spiritual ability, they too can only be nurtured with spiritual milk.
As to men of flesh is addressing unregenerate.
Did anyone say infants in Christ are not indwelt? Nope
Did anyone say infants in Christ are not regenerate? Nope
Did anyone say anyone outside of Christ is regenerate? Nope

Van said:

Since infants in Christ have not yet grown in spiritual ability, they too can only be nurtured with spiritual milk.
As to men of flesh is addressing unregenerate.
Did anyone say infants in Christ are not indwelt? Nope
Did anyone say infants in Christ are not regenerate? Nope
Did anyone say anyone outside of Christ is regenerate? Nope

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Natural persons, lost sinners, cannot receive the things of God!

Yeshua1 said:

Natural persons, lost sinners, cannot receive the things of God!

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Right, the spiritual solid food things. But they can receive the spiritual milk things, such as the gospel of Christ. This limited spiritual ability is proved by Paul speaking "as to men of flesh" using spiritual milk. See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

One of the tactics of false teachers is to make claims not based on specific statements contextually considered, but on undefined statements. For example, say I claim God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. You say show me the evidence.

I say "all things are possible with God." Then I attack, by saying by your denial that God did not put them in orbit, you are diminishing the divine attributes of God, and you deny God is sovereign and does as He pleases.

Take, "No one seeks after God." Does this mean no one ever, at any time, while unregenerate seeks God? Nope. But if you offer a more limited meaning, based on context, then the false teaches say you are adding to scripture. Never mind they did, claiming their interpretation is what it says, and any other view adds to scripture.

What is a way of finding the intended scope of "open ended" statements, rather than claiming everything imaginable is intended?

Ask the question, What is the least that God could be stating. No one seeks God some of the time or at any time? Some of the time. The context of Romans 3 indicates the idea is when a person is sinning, they are not seeking God. Thus Paul uses the fact that we do not seek God all of the time to prove we are all under sin.

There are many examples of the use of the bogus ploy, such as God would not destroy people in Gehenna because God is love. Overshooting the bounds of open ended statements can lead us into false doctrine. A sound bible study practice is to be a minimalists, being careful not to add to scripture by expanding the scope beyond its intent.

Van said:

As to men of flesh is addressing unregenerate.

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Could you 'flesh' that out (pun intended)?

Your sentence doesn't make any sense. Reword it so that it is understandable.

Does 1 Corinthians 3:1 indicate men of flesh (unregenerate) can understand the milk of the gospel? Absolutely
Does 1 Corinthians 2:14 indicate natural people (unregenerate) cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God? Nope
Does Romans 3:11 say no one ever seeks God while unregenerate? Nope
Does Matthew 23:13 indicate unregenerate people do at times seek God? Absolutely
Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say people are conditionally elected for salvation through faith in the truth? Absolutely
Does James 2:5 say God chooses those who love God? Absolutely
Does 1 Timothy 2:3-6 say God desires all people to be saved and Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all? Absolutely

If you study scripture carefully, you are less likely to be led astray by the inventions of people.

Van said:

Did anyone say anyone outside of Christ is regenerate? Nope

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Then you will have to agree that those spoken of in 1 Cor. 2:14 are indeed unregenerate. They are not 'in Christ.'

Van said:

Does 1 Corinthians 3:1 indicate men of flesh (unregenerate) can understand the milk of the gospel? Absolutely

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Dead wrong Van. Those spoken of in 1 Cor. 3:1 are in Christ. Being in Christ means, among other things --that they are regenerate.

Van said:

Right, the spiritual solid food things. But they can receive the spiritual milk things, such as the gospel of Christ. This limited spiritual ability is proved by Paul speaking "as to men of flesh" using spiritual milk. See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

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Paul stated there that lost sinners cannot receive in and by themselves any spiritual truth!

Van said:

Does 1 Corinthians 2:14 indicate natural people (unregenerate) cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God? Nope

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No way Jose. The people referenced in that passage cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. They regard those spiritual things as foolishness. These folks are perishing. See 1 Cor. 1:18 for your understanding.

Van said:

There are many examples of the use of the bogus ploy, such as God would not destroy people in Gehenna because God is love.

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Apparently you still hold to what you stated on May 3, 2012:
"The fiery torment in the afterlife lasts for a limited duration followed by annihilation, providing perfect justice."

RipponRedeaux said:

Then you will have to agree that those spoken of in 1 Cor. 2:14 are indeed unregenerate. They are not 'in Christ.'

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Did anyone say they were not? Nope - yet another non-germane post to lengthen the thread and bring on closure.

RipponRedeaux said:

Snip

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Once again the statement that Paul spoke to infants "as to men of flesh" is ripped out of the text. False doctrines must nullify verse after verse...

Yeshua1 said:

Paul stated there that lost sinners cannot receive in and by themselves any spiritual truth!

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This is an example of how Calvinism "adds to" (expands) scripture to pour their false doctrines into the text...

RipponRedeaux said:

No way Jose. The people referenced in that passage cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. They regard those spiritual things as foolishness. These folks are perishing. See 1 Cor. 1:18 for your understanding.

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Once again "the things" is rewritten to be "all the things" rather than "spiritual solid food things."

When we "reason out" scripture, we must ask ourselves, what is the least God could be saying, what must we conclude by logical necessity. Where we get into trouble, where we start carving out our own idol, is when we ask is it possible God could being saying this or that, i.e. basing our view on what the Bible does not rule out.

For example, Christ died for the church. Does this, by logical necessity mean Christ did not die for the lost, all mankind? Nope. He could have died for all mankind, which by logical necessity would include the church.

Some years ago I visited the Getty Museum in LA, and gazed upon many old paintings depicting people in scripture. And I was struck with sadness that the pictures presented an unstudied view. For example, John was depicted as writing some scripture as a young man. After all, no where in scripture does it say John did not write some initial drafts as a young man.

RipponRedeaux said:

Van said:

There are many examples of the use of the bogus ploy, such as God would not destroy people in Gehenna because God is love.

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Apparently you still hold to what you stated on May 3, 2012:
"The fiery torment in the afterlife lasts for a limited duration followed by annihilation, providing perfect justice."

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I read van as saying your statement is a bogus ploy.