1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Ephesians 1 Verses 1-5

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jan 23, 2022.

  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    " καθως εξελεξατο ημας εν αυτω προ καταβολης κοσμου ειναι ημας αγιους και αμωμους κατενωπιον αυτου εν αγαπη" ( Ephesians 1:4... Stephanus 1550, Beza 1598, Elzevir 1624, Scrivener 1898 ).
    Source: Interlinear Bible: Ephesians 1:4 - Textus Receptus Bibles

    I agree to an extent, and also submit that Paul was inspired to use the word, "εξελεξατο" ( not “ἐκλέγω” ) which, in the Greek, is in the past tense and means "has chosen".
    This can be found in other passages such as Mark 13:20, where both "elect" and "has chosen" are clearly seen:

    " And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

    Other passages where we see this usage include:

    Luke 10:42
    Acts of the Apostles 1:2
    Acts of the Apostles 13:17
    Acts of the Apostles 15:7
    1 Corinthians 1:27-28
    James 2:5

    Source: Greek Concordance: ἐξελέξατο (exelexato) -- 10 Occurrences
     
    #21 Dave G, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree.
    In addition, if you'll notice the words, it very clearly tells us two things, not one:

    1) That the believers at Ephesus were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
    2) so that they would be holy and without blame before God is love.

    Here it is again for review:

    " According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

    " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
    ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

    Here I see that the predestination found in verse 5 is to the believer's adoption of children, by Jesus Christ to Himself.

    The context is clearly speaking of those who were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world...
    Those from Ephesus that had believed the Gospel.
     
    #22 Dave G, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,828
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Peter 1:1-2, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect* strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, * According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . . ."
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nothing about election to salvation
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To me the passages states that the adoption took place when the choice was made by God to place someone in Christ:
    Before the foundation of the world, just as verses 4 tells me.

    This also agrees completely with many other passages, such as Acts of the Apostles 13:49, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:6-24, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Revelation 17:8 and so forth.
    I see nothing wrong with the translation, my friend, but I do agree with the rendering you've provided.
    To me, "after ye heard" and "after that ye believed" describes the same timing as "upon hearing...upon believing".
     
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For that exact wording and for added support for the Lord choosing people to salvation, please see 2 Thessalonians 2:13...
    where the believers at Thessalonica were chosen to salvation through two things:

    Sanctification of the spirit,
    and belief of the truth.

    In addition, David describes how it is that a person is blessed by the Lord in Psalms 65:4...
    By God choosing them and that person then being caused to approach Him.

    In other words, the Lord is the direct and only cause by which a person comes to Him.
    Therefore ( and taking everything stated in John 6:29-65 into account ) those that do not come to the Father through Christ ( John 14:6 ) and were not given to Christ by the Father ( John 6:37-40, John 6:65 ), were never caused to approach.
     
    #26 Dave G, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But we oug
    3
    But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
    2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV
     
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm sorry, my friend, but I don't use that translation because I do not completely trust it to be the preserved word of God in my native language.
    As I see it,
    There are far too many departures in it from what I believe to be the preserved Greek texts for me to rely on anything that it tells me.

    That said,
    The Greek that I do trust clearly says here:

    " ημεις δε οφειλομεν ευχαριστειν τω θεω παντοτε περι υμων αδελφοι ηγαπημενοι υπο κυριου οτι ειλετο υμας ο θεος απ αρχης εις σωτηριαν εν αγιασμω πνευματος και πιστει αληθειας"

    Source: Interlinear Bible: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 - Textus Receptus Bibles,
    Verse Analysis: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 - Textus Receptus Bibles


    and is translated:

    " But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).

    This clearly tells me that the Lord's choice of the believer to salvation was through two things:

    1) The sanctification of the spirit
    2) Their belief of the truth.
     
    #28 Dave G, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Textual evidence is strong for both readings
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,411
    Likes Received:
    1,761
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The first truth Paul expresses is that he is an Apostle by the “will of God”. That lays the foundation for everything that follows being the “will of God”.

    The Greek word for “predestined” means “to mark out beforehand”. It is a surveyors term referring to marking a piece of land that is to be built upon in the future.

    literally, God marked those who would be saved before the foundation of the world. There is no other way to understand this in context other than the reformed belief.

    If your knowledge of Greek wasn’t so corrupted by your anti-reformed hatred and bias, you might have caught that.

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How is "predestination" compatible with "human free will"?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    you will find that the root word in the Greek, is the first aorist middle indicative of ἐκλέγω

    AsI have said in the OP, this same word is used for the Choosing (ἐξελεξάμην, also in the middle) by Jesus Christ, of Judas, along with the other 11, in John 6:70. What do you make of this?
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    but the 2nd is the reason for the 1st, as the Greek says!
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Arminianism teaches "foreseen individuals with foreseen faith" were chosen before creation. That view is precluded by scripture.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What is your source for this
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,411
    Likes Received:
    1,761
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is nothing free about human will. All who sin are slaves to sin. Sin is the master of human will and it does that which the master commands.

    I thank God He did not leave us enslaved to sin but freed us by God Holy Spirit; by His grace we are saved according to the good pleasure of God’s will working with power in this world.

    Thank you Lord Jesus

    peace to you
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not to me it isn't.
    To clarify, I don't recognize anything that is , was or will be translated from the "Critical Text" in the Greek as being God's preserved words.
    It isn't.
    God's will always supercedes our will as His creations ( Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:19-20, Job 9:12, Job 42:2, Psalms 33:11, Psalms 115:3 ).

    in addition, man's will is biased against the Lord and His ways.
    We naturally hate Him and won't come to Him that we might have life.

    In fact, the Lord Jesus tells us in many places that the world hates both Him and His people ( Proverbs 29:27, John 15:18, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:9, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:17 ).
    Again, I think that you will find that in the Greek, the word " εξελεξατο" is, once again, descriptive of something being done in the past tense...
    "He has chosen".

    Verse Analysis: Ephesians 1:4 - Textus Receptus Bibles
     
    #37 Dave G, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree with your observation about Jesus choosing Judas, and about how the word is rendered.

    In that passage, I agree.

    The second is the reason for the first according to the context.

    However, to me it makes the Lord's choosing of the believers at Ephesus "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, no less a fact.
    For example, in just this letter alone, the Lord tells us much more about how and why He chose them in Christ before the foundation of the world.
     
    #38 Dave G, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Another dead on arrival thread, by those who oppose the truth of God. Read this error at your own risk.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ah I was wanting for the opposer of Bible Truth :eek:
     
Loading...