Featured Ye must be born again !

As a reminder, Jesus answers the question as to how a man is born AGAIN, not how a man is born the first time.

 

While I think the process of regeneration that takes place when we are placed into the body of Christ can be called being "born again", I thin what Jesus was describing to Nicodemus was the changes that would take place to enter the kingdom described by Ezekiel

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

Again, you are completely ignoring Jesus' answer to Nicodemus' question. Jesus told him two things are required to be born again.

In case there was any doubt as to what those two things are, John 3 leaves no question for doubt when he continues and goes on to describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon!

 

Jesus in John 3:5-8 said not a thing about baptism.

 

That's like saying John 6 said not a thing about the Eucharist.

Jesus told Nicodemus two things were required to be born again: water and the Spirit. To most of the world's Christians, this is believed to occur at baptism.

John even drives home the point as after Jesus' instruction to Nicodemus, John describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon. Just a coincidence?

The majority of the world's Christians believe that being born again = being baptized. It was therefore in baptism we receive the "newness of life" (Romans 6:4)

...This was the case until Zwingli came along and said everyone was wrong and now here we are in the "Baptist" forums!

 

Very very true. John 6 is about the true Manna from Heaven, not the Passover remembrance.

 

...And what does Jesus say is the true manna from heaven in John 6???

"...Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” - John 6:49-51


"He said, 'Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’ And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover....

"Take, eat; this is my body.” - Matthew 26:18-28



Again, saying John 3:5-8 is not about baptism is like saying John 6 is not about the Eucharist.


What do you call the water and spirit that Jesus said is required to be born again? Do you think it was just a coincidence that after this answer to Nicodemus, John goes on to describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon?

 

John 6:35, ". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . .". [see John 6:63]
John 6:47, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ."

 

Exactly!

And in John 6:51, what does Jesus explicitly call the true manna from heaven???


Again, saying John 3:5-8 is not about baptism is like saying John 6 is not about the Eucharist. Speaking of which, what do you call the water and spirit that Jesus said is required to be born again? Do you think it was just a coincidence that after this answer to Nicodemus, John goes on to describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon?

 

The Lord never tells anyone how they can purchase the new birth from Him;
It's a miracle of God's grace and mercy towards someone.

To introduce works into His holy work of redemption would pollute His grace ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ), which God's word says that we are saved by ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

 

What exactly is the "Eucharist"?...I don't recall seeing that term nor its description anywhere in God's word.

What I see in John 6, is the Lord is making reference to believers using unleavened bread and wine to commemorate His death, burial and resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 11:24 )...
Not literally eating His flesh and blood.

In addition, are you speaking of "transubstantiation", which is a Roman Catholic teaching?

The water is His word ( Ephesians 5:26 ), and the Spirit works as He wills ( John 3:6-8 )...
Not as we will.
Being born again is by God's will ( John 1:13 ), and cannot be triggered by what we do.

In other words, there are no requirements that a person can meet in order to be born again.
Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward for performing an act of contrition or penance my friend.

 

Purchase? No, as grace cannot be bought like a commodity.

However, the Lord does answer Nicodemus as to how one becomes born again. He is explicit that two things are required: water and the Spirit. John then goes on to drive the point home lest there be any doubt as to what Jesus is describing by telling us after this answer to Nicodemus, Jesus and the Apostles begin baptizing and specifically puts the setting in Aenon. Just a coincidence?

All the baptism texts of Scripture describe it as bringing newness of life (Romans 6:4) to man. It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). It "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).

It's a work all right...a work of God! This used to be believed by all Christians, until Zwingli came along and said Jesus and the Apostles were wrong, and now here were are in the "Baptist" forums!

 

The Eucharist is still the central act of worship for most of the world's Christians. It is found in Scripture in the Lord's Supper narratives. For example, "And he took the cup, and gave thanks (εὐχαριστήσας / eucharisteō), and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;" (Matthew 26:27)

What many Christians see in John 6 is Jesus stating the manna that he gives is literally his flesh. This was shocking to many who heard it and many walked away and stopped following him.

What Jesus was saying in John 6 becomes clear in light of the Last Supper.

That is how they (as well as the Orthodox) explain what occurs at the Eucharist. I'm trying to just paint the big picture. Someone had said John 3 has nothing to do with baptism, despite the fact that John make the point of the Apostles going to baptize in a place where there was an abundance of water after Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus.

I was just pointing out that saying John 3 is not about baptism is like saying John 6 is not about the Eucharist.

What verse says the water is his word?

Jesus IS the word!

He uses the material throughout history to convey his message and grace. (e.g. water, fire, oil, water, salt, mud, spittle, flesh, blood, etc.) The material world is God's theater for grace. He even entered into it!

Again, this is not correct in light of Jesus' explicit answer to Nicodemus. He says 2 things are required. Then John goes on to drive home the point...in Aenon!

 

None of Jesus close disciples saw him as literally saying the bread was his flesh or the wine was his blood. Only the ones who fell away understood him to be talking literally. That should be a red flag to you.
I know this is your stumbling block and obstacle to your faith. Instead of believing by faith, you require a salvation by works of the eucharist. Your denomination struggles with this and it is one way that many in your denomination die in their sins. They fall on their works as their hope for eternal life.

 

I see Jesus doubling down in John 6. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." - John 6:53-58

And it is those could not accept what he was saying who decided to leave him. "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" (John 6:60). Jesus doesn't chase them down. Instead he turns to those who remain and asks them, "Will you also go away?" (John 6:67)

Again, the majority of the world's Christians believe this. It isn't just Catholics and Orthodox. Even some Protestants do as well such as Lutherans and Anglicans. Here's an Anglican even defending the Catholic / Orthodox understanding:



Grammar proves Jesus is speaking literally.

 

I agree.

I'm not sure if you realize it, but you're contradicting what you've said above.

By requiring something of us as men, God would be allowing us to purchase His gifts with what is required.
That is how market deals operate, not the Lord.

Again, please see Romans 11:5-6.

I'm sorry, but to me that sounds like you're saying that God has to wait until a person is baptized in order to grant them the new birth and the gift of eternal life.
In other words, what I see you saying is that mankind cooperates with God in order to be saved.

The Bible does not teach that.

Rather, it teaches that God "begets" a person with His word ( James 1:18 ) and by His Spirit ( John 3:6 )....
Not according to our will ( John 1:13, Romans 9:16 ), but according to His own purpose and grace ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).

Baptism is a symbol of what God does through His Spirit in this regard, and the actual act has no bearing on our relationship with God as His children.
It commemorates both God's gift of the new birth to the believer, and Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

 

The two births, as Jesus explained, John 3:6-7, ". . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. . . .". Which is from God.

Totally unrelated.

 

For most of the world's professing Christians, I would agree.
But I do not subscribe to calling the bread and wine "the Eucharist", nor am I part of the majority that do.

What I personally see is the Lord Jesus giving His flesh and His blood as a sacrifice on the cross, and His saints ( His "sheep", or those His Father gave Him John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65 ) commemorating that act of sacrifice for them by physically eating the two things that symbolize it...

The bread and the wine ( Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-27 ).

I can see that, and I disagree with their explanation... as well as many other teachings that they hold to.

While I do agree that John 3 does touch on the subject of baptism,
I do not see John 6 teaching a "Eucharist" that is transformed into His actual body and blood when blessed by a priest.