As a reminder, Jesus answers the question as to how a man is born AGAIN, not how a man is born the first time.
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Ye must be born again !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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As a reminder, Jesus answers the question as to how a man is born AGAIN, not how a man is born the first time.
While I think the process of regeneration that takes place when we are placed into the body of Christ can be called being "born again", I thin what Jesus was describing to Nicodemus was the changes that would take place to enter the kingdom described by Ezekiel
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Jn 12:24
A birth is a continuing of a Father, a Progenitor , of whom they [the seed] take their image after. Remember Gen 5:3-4
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
The word for beget and begotten in this passage is the Hebrew word yalad and means :
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
Remember Jesus words In John 12:24
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Jesus here is actually telling us how one is born again, why one is born again. No doubt the Lord Himself is the Corn of Wheat that is about to fall into the ground and die, and if He dies, the resultant effect is that it will bring forth much fruit.
The word bringeth forth is the greek word phero and means:
To produce
The word fruit is the greek word karpos and means:
the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity
Jesus is saying, that if He did not die, He would abide alone as a corn of wheat, but if He dies, This would produce more wheat liken unto Himself, for the law of reproduction is for the seed to bring fort after it's own kind. Lets look at this law put into motion in Gen 1:11-12
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Notice, whose seed was in itself !
Jesus is saying, that as a Corn of Wheat, He has a seed in Himself, and if He dies, this seed of His will be reproduced, it will be brought forth , He will be reproduced. Now how does this reproducing take place ?
Its by being Born Again, receiving a New Birth, His death, His dying, falling into the ground and dying, produces this New Birth, His Spiritual Offspring, His much Fruit.
This is why Peter says in 1 Pet 1:23
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Jesus Christ is that incorruptible seed [Corn of wheat] of which we are born again. How do we know this ? Because His resurrection from the dead showed that He was incorruptible !
Ps 16:10; Acts 2:27;13:35
And it is by this resurrection of the incorruptible Seed [Corn of wheat] that we [True Believers, Elect] are born again 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
From the dead ! Remember Jesus said if the Corn of wheat falls into the ground and what ? And dies , be dead. But if it dies , it brings forth much fruit, this Jesus said knowing that He would be raised from the dead. Matt 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Matt 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
So Jesus knew in Jn 12:24 that He would be risen from the dead as that Corn of wheat that died !
3
A birth is a continuing of a Father, a Progenitor , of whom they [the seed] take their image after. Remember Gen 5:3-4
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
The word for beget and begotten in this passage is the Hebrew word yalad and means :
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
Remember Jesus words In John 12:24
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Jesus here is actually telling us how one is born again, why one is born again. No doubt the Lord Himself is the Corn of Wheat that is about to fall into the ground and die, and if He dies, the resultant effect is that it will bring forth much fruit.
The word bringeth forth is the greek word phero and means:
To produce
The word fruit is the greek word karpos and means:
the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity
Jesus is saying, that if He did not die, He would abide alone as a corn of wheat, but if He dies, This would produce more wheat liken unto Himself, for the law of reproduction is for the seed to bring fort after it's own kind. Lets look at this law put into motion in Gen 1:11-12
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Notice, whose seed was in itself !
Jesus is saying, that as a Corn of Wheat, He has a seed in Himself, and if He dies, this seed of His will be reproduced, it will be brought forth , He will be reproduced. Now how does this reproducing take place ?
Its by being Born Again, receiving a New Birth, His death, His dying, falling into the ground and dying, produces this New Birth, His Spiritual Offspring, His much Fruit.
This is why Peter says in 1 Pet 1:23
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Jesus Christ is that incorruptible seed [Corn of wheat] of which we are born again. How do we know this ? Because His resurrection from the dead showed that He was incorruptible !
Ps 16:10; Acts 2:27;13:35
And it is by this resurrection of the incorruptible Seed [Corn of wheat] that we [True Believers, Elect] are born again 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
From the dead ! Remember Jesus said if the Corn of wheat falls into the ground and what ? And dies , be dead. But if it dies , it brings forth much fruit, this Jesus said knowing that He would be raised from the dead. Matt 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Matt 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
So Jesus knew in Jn 12:24 that He would be risen from the dead as that Corn of wheat that died !
3
Again, you are completely ignoring Jesus' answer to Nicodemus' question. Jesus told him two things are required to be born again.
In case there was any doubt as to what those two things are, John 3 leaves no question for doubt when he continues and goes on to describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon!
In case there was any doubt as to what those two things are, John 3 leaves no question for doubt when he continues and goes on to describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon!
37818
Well-Known Member
Jesus in John 3:5-8 said not a thing about baptism.
That's like saying John 6 said not a thing about the Eucharist.
Jesus told Nicodemus two things were required to be born again: water and the Spirit. To most of the world's Christians, this is believed to occur at baptism.
John even drives home the point as after Jesus' instruction to Nicodemus, John describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon. Just a coincidence?
The majority of the world's Christians believe that being born again = being baptized. It was therefore in baptism we receive the "newness of life" (Romans 6:4)
...This was the case until Zwingli came along and said everyone was wrong and now here we are in the "Baptist" forums!
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37818
Well-Known Member
Very very true. John 6 is about the true Manna from Heaven, not the Passover remembrance.
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...And what does Jesus say is the true manna from heaven in John 6???
"...Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” - John 6:49-51
"He said, 'Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’ And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover....
"Take, eat; this is my body.” - Matthew 26:18-28
Again, saying John 3:5-8 is not about baptism is like saying John 6 is not about the Eucharist.
What do you call the water and spirit that Jesus said is required to be born again? Do you think it was just a coincidence that after this answer to Nicodemus, John goes on to describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon?
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37818
Well-Known Member
John 6:35, ". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . .". [see John 6:63]
John 6:47, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ."
Exactly!
And in John 6:51, what does Jesus explicitly call the true manna from heaven???
Again, saying John 3:5-8 is not about baptism is like saying John 6 is not about the Eucharist. Speaking of which, what do you call the water and spirit that Jesus said is required to be born again? Do you think it was just a coincidence that after this answer to Nicodemus, John goes on to describe Jesus and the Apostles baptizing and even puts the setting in Aenon?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The Lord never tells anyone how they can purchase the new birth from Him;
It's a miracle of God's grace and mercy towards someone.
To introduce works into His holy work of redemption would pollute His grace ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ), which God's word says that we are saved by ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
What exactly is the "Eucharist"?...I don't recall seeing that term nor its description anywhere in God's word.
What I see in John 6, is the Lord is making reference to believers using unleavened bread and wine to commemorate His death, burial and resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 11:24 )...
Not literally eating His flesh and blood.
In addition, are you speaking of "transubstantiation", which is a Roman Catholic teaching?
The water is His word ( Ephesians 5:26 ), and the Spirit works as He wills ( John 3:6-8 )...
Not as we will.
Being born again is by God's will ( John 1:13 ), and cannot be triggered by what we do.
In other words, there are no requirements that a person can meet in order to be born again.
Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward for performing an act of contrition or penance my friend.
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Purchase? No, as grace cannot be bought like a commodity.
However, the Lord does answer Nicodemus as to how one becomes born again. He is explicit that two things are required: water and the Spirit. John then goes on to drive the point home lest there be any doubt as to what Jesus is describing by telling us after this answer to Nicodemus, Jesus and the Apostles begin baptizing and specifically puts the setting in Aenon. Just a coincidence?
All the baptism texts of Scripture describe it as bringing newness of life (Romans 6:4) to man. It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). It "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).
It's a work all right...a work of God! This used to be believed by all Christians, until Zwingli came along and said Jesus and the Apostles were wrong, and now here were are in the "Baptist" forums!
The Eucharist is still the central act of worship for most of the world's Christians. It is found in Scripture in the Lord's Supper narratives. For example, "And he took the cup, and gave thanks (εὐχαριστήσας / eucharisteō), and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;" (Matthew 26:27)
What many Christians see in John 6 is Jesus stating the manna that he gives is literally his flesh. This was shocking to many who heard it and many walked away and stopped following him.
What Jesus was saying in John 6 becomes clear in light of the Last Supper.
That is how they (as well as the Orthodox) explain what occurs at the Eucharist. I'm trying to just paint the big picture. Someone had said John 3 has nothing to do with baptism, despite the fact that John make the point of the Apostles going to baptize in a place where there was an abundance of water after Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus.
I was just pointing out that saying John 3 is not about baptism is like saying John 6 is not about the Eucharist.
What verse says the water is his word?
Jesus IS the word!
He uses the material throughout history to convey his message and grace. (e.g. water, fire, oil, water, salt, mud, spittle, flesh, blood, etc.) The material world is God's theater for grace. He even entered into it!
Again, this is not correct in light of Jesus' explicit answer to Nicodemus. He says 2 things are required. Then John goes on to drive home the point...in Aenon!
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None of Jesus close disciples saw him as literally saying the bread was his flesh or the wine was his blood. Only the ones who fell away understood him to be talking literally. That should be a red flag to you.
I know this is your stumbling block and obstacle to your faith. Instead of believing by faith, you require a salvation by works of the eucharist. Your denomination struggles with this and it is one way that many in your denomination die in their sins. They fall on their works as their hope for eternal life.
I see Jesus doubling down in John 6. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." - John 6:53-58
And it is those could not accept what he was saying who decided to leave him. "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" (John 6:60). Jesus doesn't chase them down. Instead he turns to those who remain and asks them, "Will you also go away?" (John 6:67)
Again, the majority of the world's Christians believe this. It isn't just Catholics and Orthodox. Even some Protestants do as well such as Lutherans and Anglicans. Here's an Anglican even defending the Catholic / Orthodox understanding:
Grammar proves Jesus is speaking literally.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Being born of incorruptible seed !
1 Pet 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Jesus said to Nicodemus these words Jn 3:7
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he must be born again of [out of] incorruptible seed !
Notice the phrase " but of incorruptible" speaking of seed ! As by Nature all men are born of [out of] corruptible seed.
The word of is the greek word ek a preposition denoting:
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative
out of, from, by, away from
So ones birth must originate out of an source or cause.
In this case the source must be an incorruptible seed. The word of God, which is Christ, The Logos of God Jn 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The Incarnate Word Jn 1:14 had a seed in Him, that is Life Jn 1:4
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
This is seed Life and so it is incorruptible seed life.
This Life was in Him , Just as seed life was in Adam which however was corruptible life.
So in the same way one was born of corruptible seed of Adam, so likewise one must be born of incorruptible seed, The Word of God, to partake of Spiritual Life.
But one must have had life already in Adam to have been born out of him, and so likewise, one must have life already in The Logos to be born out of Him.
We know that Life was in Him before the incarnation by Jn 1:4
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The word life is singular and the word men is plural, denoting it was one life for many, a seed Life, a Generation who had life in Him.
1 Pet 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Jesus said to Nicodemus these words Jn 3:7
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he must be born again of [out of] incorruptible seed !
Notice the phrase " but of incorruptible" speaking of seed ! As by Nature all men are born of [out of] corruptible seed.
The word of is the greek word ek a preposition denoting:
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative
out of, from, by, away from
So ones birth must originate out of an source or cause.
In this case the source must be an incorruptible seed. The word of God, which is Christ, The Logos of God Jn 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The Incarnate Word Jn 1:14 had a seed in Him, that is Life Jn 1:4
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
This is seed Life and so it is incorruptible seed life.
This Life was in Him , Just as seed life was in Adam which however was corruptible life.
So in the same way one was born of corruptible seed of Adam, so likewise one must be born of incorruptible seed, The Word of God, to partake of Spiritual Life.
But one must have had life already in Adam to have been born out of him, and so likewise, one must have life already in The Logos to be born out of Him.
We know that Life was in Him before the incarnation by Jn 1:4
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The word life is singular and the word men is plural, denoting it was one life for many, a seed Life, a Generation who had life in Him.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
I'm not sure if you realize it, but you're contradicting what you've said above.
By requiring something of us as men, God would be allowing us to purchase His gifts with what is required.
That is how market deals operate, not the Lord.
Again, please see Romans 11:5-6.
I'm sorry, but to me that sounds like you're saying that God has to wait until a person is baptized in order to grant them the new birth and the gift of eternal life.
In other words, what I see you saying is that mankind cooperates with God in order to be saved.
The Bible does not teach that.
Rather, it teaches that God "begets" a person with His word ( James 1:18 ) and by His Spirit ( John 3:6 )....
Not according to our will ( John 1:13, Romans 9:16 ), but according to His own purpose and grace ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).
Baptism is a symbol of what God does through His Spirit in this regard, and the actual act has no bearing on our relationship with God as His children.
It commemorates both God's gift of the new birth to the believer, and Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
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37818
Well-Known Member
The two births, as Jesus explained, John 3:6-7, ". . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. . . .". Which is from God.
Totally unrelated.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
For most of the world's professing Christians, I would agree.
But I do not subscribe to calling the bread and wine "the Eucharist", nor am I part of the majority that do.
What I personally see is the Lord Jesus giving His flesh and His blood as a sacrifice on the cross, and His saints ( His "sheep", or those His Father gave Him John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65 ) commemorating that act of sacrifice for them by physically eating the two things that symbolize it...
The bread and the wine ( Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-27 ).
I can see that, and I disagree with their explanation... as well as many other teachings that they hold to.
While I do agree that John 3 does touch on the subject of baptism,
I do not see John 6 teaching a "Eucharist" that is transformed into His actual body and blood when blessed by a priest.
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