1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured God No One Has Seen At Any Time

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Apr 18, 2022.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God No One Has Seen At Any Time

    “Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο” (John 1:18)

    “God no one hath ever seen; the Unique God, who is always close to the Father; He has revealed”

    This verse is used by some as “proof”, that Jesus Christ cannot be “God”. It is argued, that John is clear here, that no one has ever seen God. Is this correct?

    Reading this verse shows this to be wrong. Here we have in the oldest and best textual evidence, dating from the early 2nd century, even in the Gospel of John used by the early heretics. There is no doubt that the Apostle John wrote, “Θεὸν...μονογενὴς Θεὸς”. It should also be noted, that in both places, the noun, “Θεὸς”, is used without the definite Greek article “τὸν Θεόν...Θεὸς”, as John does in 1:1, “καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος” (and the Word was God). Do we translate John 1:18 as, “god no one has ever seen...the Unique god”? No!

    It is very clear from John 1:18, that John is here speaking of the Father, who has never been seen, as “Θεὸν”, is here “τοῦ Πατρὸς” (the Father), Whom Jesus is always close to. In John 6:46, Jesus makes this very clear: “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father”. Jesus here speaks of His eternal existence with God the Father, as we see the same Greek “ὢν”, as in 1:18, which is in the present, continuous tense. Also Jesus says that He is “from God” the Father, which is the preposition, “παρα”, that is, “besides, along side”.

    In Exodus chapter 33, we read, “and Yahweh said to Moses...You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live” (verses 17, 20). Yet, in verse 11 it says, “So Yahweh spoke to Moses Face to face, as a man speaks to his friend”. “pānîm ’el-pānîm”, can also mean, “Person to person”. It is clear that Yahweh here is Speaking directly to Moses, as do friends with each other. The detailed description shows that it is not a dream or vision. In verse 9 we read, “the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle”, and 10, “All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshipped, each man in his tent door”. Yahweh was in this Pillar of cloud, Whom Moses saw. In Deuteronomy 34:10, we read, “No prophet has arisen again in Israel like Moses, whom Yahweh knew Face to face (pānîm ’el-pānîm)”. It is clear from Exodus 33, that there are TWO Persons Who are Yahweh. The One Who meets Moses “Face to face”, as do humans when they meet each other; and the Other, Who says that no one can ever see His Face and live! The One is Jesus Christ, and the Other, The Father. There is no other explanation for this passage.

    In Genesis 32, we read, “Jacob was left alone, and a Man wrestled with him until daybreak” (verse 24). This “Man” Who Jacob wrestled with, was actually “physically” with him. In verse 30, Jacob says, “Jacob then named the place Peniel, For I have seen God Face to face (’ĕlōhîm pānîm ’el-pānîm), he said, and I have been delivered”. Jacob is clear that the “Man”, Whom he wrestled with, is none other than Almighty God.

    In Numbers 14:14, “They will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people, how You, Yahweh, are seen Face to face (‘ayin bə‘ayin, Eye to eye), how Your cloud stands over them, and how You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night”

    Deuteronomy 5:4, “Yahweh spoke to you Face to face (pānîm ’el-pānîm) from the fire on the mountain”

    All these Encounters are without doubt, directly with Almighty God Himself. Who is Yahweh. As this cannot be the Father, it can only be the pre-Incarnational Appearances of the Lord Jesus Christ, know as Theophanies, or Christophanies.

    We also have the actual Visit from Yahweh to Abraham, in Genesis chapters 17-19, were we read of Yahweh having his “feet washed”, “eating food”, and “walking with Abraham”; all of which shows that this was not a “dream or vision”, but Yahweh actually with Abraham and Sarah.

    In the 6th chapter in the Book of Judges, where we have “The Angel of Yahweh (Mal'âk Ye hôvâh)”, Visit Gideon. In verse 12 we read, “Then the Angel of Yahweh Appeared to him and said: “Yahweh is with you, mighty warrior”. Here “The Angel of Yahweh”, Speaks of Another Who is “Yahweh”. In verse 14 it says, “Yahweh looked (pânâh, to face) upon him and said”, showing “physical” contact. Gideon addresses “The Angel”, “Please, Lord (, the Name used for God), how can I deliver Israel?” (verse 15). Note that “Lord” here is, “’Aḏōnāy”, and not, “’ăḏōnê”. Clearly Gideon knows who this Mal'âk Ye hôvâh is. In the next verse, the Angel replies, “But I will be with you, the Lord said to him”. Here “LORD” is “Ye hôvâh”, Who is The Angel of Ye hôvâh! “I will be”, is in the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, which is the same in Exodus 3:14, “I AM”. Here we have The Angel of Yahweh, Who is also Yahweh, who says to Gideon, “I Am with you”. Language that is impossible for any created being to use! In verse 22 Gideon says, “When Gideon realized that He was the Angel of the Lord, he said, Oh no, Lord God (literally, ’Aḏōnāy Ye hôvâh) I have seen the Angel of the Lord Face to face (pānîm ’el-pānîm)”. Gideon is assured by Yahweh Himself, “But Yahweh said to him, Peace to you. Don’t be afraid, for you will not die” (verse 23). If this Angel of Yahweh, were a created angel, then Yahweh would not have told Gideon, “Don’t be afraid, for you will not die”, as only those who see God Face to face, will die! Nothing can be clearer from this passage in Judges, that The Angel of Yahweh, Who is clearly distinct from Yahweh, and Himself Yahweh, is The Lord Jesus Christ.

    In Malachi 3:1, there is a Prophecy of the First Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    “See, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the Way before Me. Then the Lord you seek will suddenly come to His temple, the Messenger of the Covenant you desire—see, He is Coming,” says Yahweh of Hosts”

    This is a very interesting verse. The Speaker here is “Yahweh of Hosts”. The first “messenger” is to clear the Way for Him, “he will clear the Way before Me”. We then have “hā 'Adônây” (The Lord, not, “Adôn”, Who is here “Mal'âk be rı̂yth” (The Messenger of the Covenant). This “Messenger” is also Coming.

    In the Gospels (Matthew 11:10, etc), Jesus Christ quotes from the verse, but makes a change to the personal pronoun. Instead of “Me (μου)”, we have “You (σου). By doing so, Jesus here makes Himself the Speaker in Malachi 3:1, Who is “Yahweh of Hosts”, and He says that John the Baptist, went before Him, to prepare His Way, and that Her is “The Messenger of the Covenant”. This is one of the strongest Testimonies by Jesus Christ, to His own Absolute Deity, as “Yahweh of Hosts”. Nothing else can account for the change of the pronoun by Jesus! Matthew 3:3, etc, with Isaiah 40:3, confirms the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Coming of Yahweh/Elohim.

    Jesus Christ clearly identifies Himself as “The Messenger of Yahweh”, in the Old Testament, Who is Himself also Yahweh. Those who still argue that there is only One Person in the Bible, Who is Yahweh, and that this is the Father, are proven to be wrong from the Bible! There is no escaping the facts as taught in the Bible, that BOTH Jesus Christ, and the Father are Yahweh, but not the same Person. The Person Who Spoke with Moses FACE TO FACE, and Who is the “Man” Who Appeared to Gideon, is Yahweh. Yet we are also told that no human can see God and live. We have seen that this refers ONLY to God the Father.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In dispute, John 1:18, ". . . only begotten Son . . . ." ". . . only begotten God . . . ."
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The oldest and most important textual evidence supports God
     
  4. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    2,042
    Likes Received:
    332
    Faith:
    Baptist
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know that reading " . . . only begotten God . . ." is not God's word. It is polytheism. Isaiah 43:10-11, ". . . believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. . . ."
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    no idea how you arrive at what you say, but you are completely wrong. It teaches no such thing
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paul supports "Son," Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    we are talking about John 1:18. In 1 Timothy 3:16, the Original words of the Apostle Paul, "Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί", which is what John is saying in 1:18, "Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο"
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jacob does not say he wrestled with YHWH. You're reading into the text to force your inexplicable need to present Jesus alone as Yahweh. And as I've pointed out before, that is as forced as saying Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

    But you make the opening statement more complicated than it actually is. No man has seen God as He is. That's the gist of the statement. Of course there have been manifestations, visitations and visions in all ages. Even in the final and authoritative manifestation of His Son, no one has seen God as He is. Seeing God as He is, is something promised only to those who will be like Him. 1 John 3:2 .
     
    #10 Aaron, Apr 18, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Way to cloud an issue, there SBG. Who hath declared Him? in these last days, the Son.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In Genesis 32:30, Jacob says, “Jacob then named the place Peniel, For I have seen God Face to face (’ĕlōhîm pānîm ’el-pānîm), he said, and I have been delivered”. Jacob is clear that the “Man”, Whom he wrestled with, is none other than Almighty God.

    Note that Jacob says that after he saw GOD, he did not die. This is only true of God the Father, and not Jesus Christ, Who is the "Man", with whom he wrestled.

    Show from the passage/context that this is not true
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Of the Greek manuscripts, we have: The Codices P66 (about 200 A.D.), P75 (early 3rd cent.), Sinaticus (4th), Vaticanus (4th), Ephraemi (5th). Earlier than this, we have this reading “θεὸς” in, Ignatius (died 110), Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (130-200), Clement of Alexandria (150-215), and The Diatessaron, (about 180). We also have the testimony of the early “heretics”, like Valentinus of Egypt (2nd cent), Origen (185-254), Arius of Alexandria (250-336), who read “θεὸς” in John 1:18, and not “υιος”.

    The earliest Greek manuscript that reads, “υιος”, is the 5th century Codex Alexandrinus, over 200 years after the P66
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So? Earliest doesn't mean most accurate. Paul pretty much validates the "Son" reading.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    you don't know much about textualm studies :rolleyes:
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    what has Paul got to do with the reading of John 1:18?
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Two Gods in the reading, ". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the unique God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . ." You have an extra God with God the Father. Which is contrary to God saying "there is no God beside me." Isaiah 45:5.
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    you denying that Jesus Christ is God?

    Isaiah 45:5, can read, "there is no god beside me"
     
  19. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    2,042
    Likes Received:
    332
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There you go. Look how your textual witnesses flipped. The ones you called oldest and best no longer agree with you at 1 Timothy 3:16. Here those oldest and best are not so good are they? Now you can see which witnesses are best in first Timothy 3:16. Those that are right at 1 Timothy are also right at John 1:18. I'm glad it was brought up so you could see what the best witnesses really are.

    In other words the Byzantine Majority Text is right at 1 Timothy 3:16 and the Alexandrian text is wrong there. Why isnt the Alexandrian also wrong at John 1:18? You can see that the Byzantine/Majority Text, along with the Textus Receptus is correct both at 1 Timothy 3:16 and John 1:18 . the Alexandrian Text is wrong both at those 2 places.
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    True, but what I do know, I do know. And I know that older doesn't mean more accurate.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
Loading...