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Featured 5 Views on Sanctification

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AustinC, Feb 10, 2023.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This is easy, Van.
    Our spirits were dead in sin. Unable to reconcile with the Creator. God must make us spiritually alive or we will forever be spiritually dead.

    What makes it hard for you to read Ephesians 2:1-10 and not accept what it says?
     
    #21 AustinC, Feb 12, 2023
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, more false claims and no supporting evidence.
    Did anyone say we "reconcile with the Creator?" No, of course not. But there it is, disinformation on display.
    Did anyone say we make ourselves spiritually alive? No, of course not. But there it is, disinformation on display.
    Who cannot read Ephesians 2:1-10? AustinC!

    Eph 2:5
    even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ - by grace you are saved!

    When we were saved, we were dead in transgressions, by being made alive together with Christ - transferred into Christ's spiritual body.

    But why did God choose to transfer those chosen to be saved through the sanctification (setting apart in Christ) by the Spirit? The answer is "through faith in the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13) Thus those dead in transgressions are able to put their faith in Christ. They could not be given faith before they were chosen for salvation. Thus faith before regeneration, being made alive together with Christ.
     
    #22 Van, Feb 17, 2023
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Van, do you see your man-centered gospel in your assertion above? It's blatant, but my guess is you just don't see how you remove grace and make salvation contingent upon a condition. You continued insistence on making salvation conditional will always be wrong, no matter how many times you assert it.
     
    #23 AustinC, Feb 17, 2023
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    How many times are your going to repeat the same obvious false claims, like a mindless robot? I have shown you time and again your false doctrine is man-centered nonsense, invented in the dark ages.

    Do I make salvation contingent upon a condition? Nope, I cite verse after verse which you never address. Did God choose those rich in faith? Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man centered. Got it?

    Did God choose those that love God? Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man-centered. Got it?

    Does God choose through "faith in the truth?" Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man-centered. God it?
     
    #24 Van, Feb 17, 2023
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    So how is a person saved?

    They are transferred into Christ's spiritual body, where they undergo the washing of regeneration,, and then they arise alive in Christ as new holy creation. Then they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to their physical redemption at Christ's second coming.

    So how is a person made spiritually alive?

    They are transferred into Christ's spiritual body, where they undergo the washing of regeneration,, and then they arise alive in Christ as new holy creation. Then they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to their physical redemption at Christ's second coming.

    So how is a person made holy?

    They are transferred into Christ's spiritual body, where they undergo the washing of regeneration,, and then they arise alive in Christ as new holy creation. Then they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to their physical redemption at Christ's second coming.

    God sets individuals apart in Christ, thus giving the individual to Christ, John 6:37.
    When are the saved made alive. After they are given to Christ, they are then made alive, regenerated, together with Christ. Ephesians 2:5.

    When are those given to Christ made holy? After they are transferred into Christ's spiritual body, they undergo the washing of regeneration (being made alive from being spiritually dead), thus making those in Christ a new holy spiritual creation, born anew. Ephesians 2:5, 2 Corinthians 5:17 and 5:21.
     
    #25 Van, Feb 17, 2023
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you have a condition for God's election, which is God's salvation. You demand that a person's own faith be judged by God in order for them to be chosen and justified by God.
    That is the definition of a condition for salvation. It therefore eliminates grace.
    Until you can accept that faith is a gift of God and it is God's gift of faith that justifies us before God, you will, by your very argument, be teaching a conditional and graceless gospel.
     
    #26 AustinC, Feb 17, 2023
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    People are made alive and set apart at the moment God chooses to give them faith to believe.
     
    #27 AustinC, Feb 17, 2023
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Now we get get "conditional salvation" instead of conditional election. I think the light may be on, but no one is home.
    God word is explicit, and you demand that your faith overrides scripture.

    How many times are your going to repeat the same obvious false claims, like a mindless robot? I have shown you time and again your false doctrine is man-centered nonsense, invented in the dark ages.

    Do I make salvation contingent upon a condition? Nope, I cite verse after verse which you never address. Did God choose those rich in faith? Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man centered. Got it?

    Did God choose those that love God? Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man-centered. Got it?

    Does God choose through "faith in the truth?" Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man-centered. God it?
     
    #28 Van, Feb 17, 2023
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Van, no matter how incredulous you act. God's word does not support your conditional teachings.
     
    #29 AustinC, Feb 17, 2023
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    James 2:5
    2 Thessalonians 2:13
    1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

    God's word is explicit, and you demand that your faith overrides scripture. I have shown time and again your false doctrine is man-centered nonsense, invented in the dark ages.

    Do I make salvation contingent upon a condition? Nope, I cite verse after verse which you never address. Did God choose those rich in faith? Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man centered. Got it?

    Did God choose those that love God? Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man-centered. Got it?

    Does God choose through "faith in the truth?" Yes. Is that a condition? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man-centered. God it?

    Does God choose people with humble characteristics for His purpose? Yes. I that a conditional choice? Yes. Thus to embrace the fact is God centered and to deny scripture is man-centered. God it?

    Does God give grace to the humble and oppose the proud? Yes. Is that a conditional action? Yes.
    Grace given corporately can be unconditionally bestowed, as in common grace, but grace given individually is conditionally bestowed.

    This is Christianity 101.
     
    #30 Van, Feb 18, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2023
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Let's look at Van's 3 references in their context.
    James 2:5
    *James 2:1-7*
    My brothers,show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?

    This begs the question of Van's assertion where he says that people who are rich by the world's judgment cannot be chosen. He openly says that God has a condition. He says God won't choose anyone who hasn't humbled himself first.
    Note that such teaching is a graceless gospel and James does not teach what Van is teaching.
    (Discernment 101)

    2 Thessalonians 2:13

    *2 Thessalonians 2:9-17*
    The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

    Here, Van seems to think that God's choosing is based upon whether a human has already sanctified themselves and believed God themselves. However, the text says that God chose us first and then sanctifies us and causes us to believe.
    (Discernment 101)

    1 Corinthians 1:26-30

    *1 Corinthians 1:20-31*
    Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

    Van is claiming that humans must be a certain way before God can choose them. Yet, this isn't what Paul is saying. Paul is addressing the church at Corinth and is showing his readers that the thinking of Jews and Greeks is irrelevant to God. God chose people and these chosen people are to follow that which the world considers foolishness.
    (Discernment 101)

    So, Van wants to make salvation conditional. He wants to make God's choice reactionary to the way humans live rather than a choice that was made before the foundation of the world. He picked 3 proof texts that do not support his assertion.
    (Discernment 101)
     
    #31 AustinC, Feb 18, 2023
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You keep making that argument so provide where that is clearly stated in scripture. You have been provided with numerous verses that show the condition of salvation is faith in Christ Jesus but you deny them, why?
     
    #32 Silverhair, Feb 18, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again, bogus false claims are posted as the Calvinist run from truth.
    Did I say or suggest the worldly wealthy cannot be saved? Nope but that falsehood was attributed to me.
    Did I say God chooses people who have sanctified themselves? Nope, but that falsehood was attributed to me.
    Did I say people believe God themselves with no planting and watering by witnesses? Nope, but the false claim was attributed to me.
    Was a corrupted text of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 used which has "to be saved" rather than the actual "for salvation." Yes, for the purpose of obfuscating the doctrine of conditional election.
    Does 1 Corinthians 1:26-29 say people must be in those conditions as viewed by the world to be chosen? No of course not.
    But the passage does say God chooses people with characteristics that suit His purpose. So simple a child could grasp it.
    Did I say Salvation is conditional? What did I say. Conditional Election. Ask yourselves why Calvinists run from truth!!!
     
    #33 Van, Feb 18, 2023
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Here you go. I have shared this so many times, yet you ignore it every time.

    *Ephesians 2:1-10*
    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    *Colossians 1:15-23,27-29*
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.
     
    #34 AustinC, Feb 18, 2023
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You gave proof texts and told us that salvation was conditional on a man's faith.
     
    #35 AustinC, Feb 18, 2023
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Austin you said:
    "People are made alive and set apart at the moment God chooses to give them faith to believe."

    But these verses do not support your view.

    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— Note we are saved by HIS grace

    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing Note once again Paul states that we are saved by HIS grace and even tells us why we are saved, through faith

    Salvation is the gift of God not faith, I have pointed this out to you numerous times but you continue to deny this clear biblical truth. Why is that Austin? You claim to trust the bible but your refusal to do so indicates that you really do not.

    Act of the Apostles _16:31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
    Romans 3:21-28 righteousness, through faith in Christ
    Galatians 3:14 ...receive the promise...through faith
    Romans 1:16 power of God to salvation for who believes
    Philippians 3:9 righteousness... through faith in Christ
    2Timothy 3:15 salvation through faith

    You need to provide a clear verse of scripture that proves God saves unto faith or as Calvinism teaches:
    “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. L. Boettner
     
    #36 Silverhair, Feb 18, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The verses I shared, certainly make my point, as do the other references you have cherry picked. You just won't accept that faith is a gift of God.
    Therefore, since you reject faith as a gift of God, faith must be a manufactured, self-willed product of your corrupt flesh that you invoke and God is pleased enough by your invocation to graciously saved you.

    See the difference between you and me.
    For you, man is lifted up as co-savior with God
    For me, God is the sole Savior of my wretched person, receiving all glory and praise.
    I leave you to keep manipulating the Bible so you can pat yourself on the back.
     
    #37 AustinC, Feb 18, 2023
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    If the bible told me that faith was a gift from God then I would accept it but when I asked you to provide clear scripture showing that, you provide nothing. Why is that Austin? Surely you must have numerous verses to support your view or at least one. It is time for you to put up or just fold your tent and steal away in the night knowing you are just so much blow and bluster.

    So what is the "gift of God" according to scripture:
    Joh_4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, {Christ Jesus} and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    You continue to ignore the bible which,strangely, you claim to trust but you obviously do not trust. It really does not matter to you what a person says if it does not fit your theology you just ignore them. It is no wonder that you never learn anything your mind is closed. Disagreeing with me does not matter but when you disagree with the bible and claim your view is the correct one then it just proves how arrogant you are.

    I will leave you to bask in your Gnostic Philosophy.
     
    #38 Silverhair, Feb 18, 2023
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Either faith is a gift of God or it's a work of man. Which one is it, Sliverhair?

    Since you reject it as God's gift to you, you must think it comes from you.

    Now, God's word does tell us that faith is a gracious gift from God, despite your repeated rejection of this truth, so you're simply going to have to answer to God on this issue.
     
    #39 AustinC, Feb 18, 2023
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why these Calvinists are allowed to repeatedly post material false states over and over is beyond me. They run from truth and manufacture false charges.
     
    #40 Van, Feb 19, 2023
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