Featured Symbols in the word of God.

Well, you have not shown any imagery or connected any dots as examples, so who can know what you are even talking about. I think the best thing is to demonstrate by your own comments that you are not believing what the scriptures say about the biblical term, "the dispensation of the grace of God."

First of all, you have quoted a corruption of the divine counsel, called the NAS, that improperly has the word "stewardship" for the word "dispensation," assuring that people who read this book will not ever understand the mystery Paul is revealing in his letters to the gentile churches, while allowing you, who have adopted this practice, to teach others a doctrine that is not true.

You seem to say that the dispensation of the grace of God is imagery and symbols. That does not make sense and you have not explained it. I am assuming you can't explain it.

So I am going to explain it as a dispensation.

You must remember what I said about the apostle Paul. He did not appear in history as a believer until 37/38 AD when he had a miraculous encounter with Jesus Christ on the Damascus Road, when Saul/Paul saw the risen Christ, a requirement for an apostle when he was saved in the presence of Jesus Christ, another requirement for an apostle.

So, all the history from Acts 1 to Acts 9, a period of 7/8 years had passed before Paul entered the Christian faith during which time Paul was a persecuter of the Jewish believers in Christ. This is important to my argument. Now, read the passage I am quoting below and reason with me on the logic of the words.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye (gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the Jewish saints), and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye (gentiles) also are builded together (with the Jewish believers) for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward (gentile-ward)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 (the mystery that is being revealed now) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body (as the Jews), and partakers of his promise (the Spirit of Christ) in Christ by the gospel (by hearing and believing the gospel which is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the sins of all men)
7 Whereof (the gentiles) I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship (Jew & gentile) of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

The logic is that this development was in the mind of God before the world was created but is only now being realized in actuality and could not have even been known until there was a beginning for it and we know the beginning was in AD 30 after the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven in Acts 2 as the Jewish believers in Christ were first to be in this household, called in this passage "the household of God." Surely educated men can follow the logic. The gentiles could not be "added" to something that did not previously exist.

So, this letter was written in AD 60. The gospel was first preached to and was believed by Jews in AD 30, ten days after Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, where he is now. Next it was preached to and believed by Samaritans in AD 38. Samaritans were strangers and represented the scattered people of Israel. Finally, in AD 40, God sent Peter to open the door of faith to the gentiles/ the world in acts 10, and we have the beginning of the dispensation of the grace of God, explained by Paul in his letters to the gentiles.

I did not make it up that Peter opened the door of faith to the gentiles. I got that from the testimony of the holy scriptures. One can read it here;

Ac 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and [to] Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
24 And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia.
25 And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Ac 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Do you see why it is needful to have a change in the management of the household instead of trying to manage it under the old rules of a different house, the house of Moses????

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

I will return later with some inrefutable and convincing reason and logic. Consider now that you are much too intelligent to be convinced by lies to reject the truths of the scriptures. You are giving up your advantage and are being willfully ignorant of the truths of God.

Believe the words. There is safety in believing the words.

 

JD, do you take this passage literally or figuratively?

*Revelation 11:1-13*
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pitwill make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

I, of course, take them literally, and I will give you the skinny on the two Olive Trees and two candlesticks in the text you have chosen so you will know how God intends for us to process symbolic language literally.

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The

I do go anywhere in other parts of the scriptures to learn about these "two Olive Trees and Two candlesticks."

I learn much about them in the texts (see bold highlights)

1)They are two witnesses V 3
2) Verse 5 says they are protected of God while they prosecute their calling V 5
3) They have authority fro God to hold back rain, turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with plagues when it pleases them, according to Verse 6

4) when they are finished with their testimony, God will allow them to be killed by the enemy. V 7
5) Their dead bodies will lie in the street 3 1/2 days and cause great joy because of it. V8-10
6) They are identified as "prophets" in V 10
7) In V 11-12 we have the testimony from God that he raised them from the dead in front of everyone and raptured them to heaven.

Now tell me, what is it you do not believe about the testimony of God in Re 11 and your reasoning for not believing it?

 

Who are the two olive trees and candlesticks? (Realize, of course, that God already explained the candlesticks earlier in Revelation.Also note that the candlesticks were not literal.)

Do the two witnesses literally shoot fire from their mouths? What literal temple did John measure? Why count the number of people in the temple, but not the outer court yard, which is still in the Temple area? Tell us the absolute literal meaning and then try to reconcile it with the very clear understanding of who the candlestick represents.

JD, there is so much imagery here that anyone trying to be literal is going to have to make up a contortionist opinion.

 

You guys are much worse bible deniers and unbelievers than I ever thought you were. You have denied about everything I presented to you so far, believing only John 6:44.

So, okay, I have given you 7 declarative statements about these two in Re 11 and you say they are symbolic only. I will post the sever things and you convince me what God intends for us to learn from them. Feel free to use the whole chapter if you need it.

1)They are two witnesses V 3
2) Verse 5 says they are protected of God while they prosecute their calling V 5
3) They have authority from God to hold back rain, turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with plagues when it pleases them, according to Verse 6

4) when they are finished with their testimony, God will allow them to be killed by the enemy. V 7
5) Their dead bodies will lie in the street 3 1/2 days and cause great joy because of it. V8-10
6) They are identified as "prophets" in V 10
7) In V 11-12 we have the testimony from God that he raised them from the dead in front of everyone and raptured them to heaven.

 

So these are two living, breathing guys who will literally breathe fire at anyone who opposes them?
Yes, we understand the imagery of the prophets much differently. You take what is clearly a picture and image and turn it into some convoluted, literal thing. I see these images as relating to Elijah and Moses who are images of the church in our present tribulation.

 

So, it is precisely because I know about imagery that I understand this literally. as something that actually happens in the future, just like John prophesied in this book.

Mt 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Mr 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Bible believers knows that the command for fire to come down and devour them came out of their mouths like it did in a similar and typical instance with Elijah two different times in 2 Kings 2.

2Ki 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

This is the manner in which fire comes out of the same man in Re 11. This is Elijah and if I were an unbeliever I would be more incredulous that Elijah is back from the distant past than I would that fire could come out of his mouth.

Mt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (When Jesus was still here on earth bodily) I am guessing you don't believe that testimony of scripture either. Nor yet the following one.

Mt 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

You have read some deceiver say such ridiculous things as that. You did not attempt to show from the scriptures how you could come to such a conclusion as that. You have locked down your mind and your are now presenting yourself as the smartest person in the room by boasting of absolutely senseless things.
When you tell me you do not believe the scriptures, I am going to believe what you say, and I am going to treat you as an unbeliever. You have thrown out several verses of context in Re 11 because you do not believe one sentence. Then you have replaced the truth and prophesy with something that comes out of some other unbelievers mind that cannot be explained and it leaves God looking like the dummy for expecting us to understand the unconfirmable.

 

I'm sorry that all the original thoughts you have are Dispensationalism.

 

They are not dispensational except in the sense that, they are contextual. They are logical. They are sensible. My thoughts do not have me ignoring the plain statements of Re 11:3-13 describing the ministry of two men just because the writer says they are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. These men have bodies and can be killed.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

You men do not know how to process information in a logical and studious manner because you do not believe the words of the scriptures.

These two are those who appeared on the mount of transfiguration in Mark 9 and they also are the men in Acts 1 when Jesus ascended to heaven and they are here in the revelation of Jesus Christ when he is ready to return to earth. They were resurrected and will be in his company when he returns.
I hope you understand I am being honest with you in order to help you see more clearly when the light is on.

1. BELIEVE THE WORDS​

 

AustinC and I may be the Two Witnesses and you wouldn't know it...

 

So John measured the Temple that Zerubbabel built, not Herod's temple that was destroyed in AD 70? And he counted the people who were at Z's temple, but only those inside the Holy place, not in the outer courtyard?
Exactly how literal are you going to be when Zechariah was prophesying imagery? I take it then that this prophetic word, by your view, has nothing to do with Jesus. Is that accurate?

So, even though God already told us that the candlesticks are churches, you see them as two literal persons? Moses and Elijah will physically come to earth and blow fire out of their mouths while bring plagues.

 

You are witnesses. You are witnessing that you cannot articulate what your doctrine is concerning this text and how you came to believe it. You seem to think these words are just filler without meaning. You are unwilling to explain yourself.

Who would believe you guys?

 

Here is my study of Revelation 11.

 

This is my blog page, where I step up and put down what I believe. It is mostly John Gill, adapted and edited, for the modern reader. It's good stuff.

! ALARM Index:

I'll have to 'look up what I believe' about The Two Witnesses...

 

In the Old Testament: "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Corinthians 10:11

In The New Testament: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1,2.

In Revelation: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

Signified;

John12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 "This he said, signifying what death he should die."

John 18:31b..."The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

32 "That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die."

Acts 11:27 "And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.

28 "And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar."

 

You have not paid attention to the prophetic word of God. The scripture does not make any claim that this temple is built by Zerubbabel and it certainly cannot be the temple of Herod for the reason you state. That temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Titus the Roman general. They left not one stone on another just like our Lord Jesus said about it. Let me quote that statement to you.

Mt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. (This would be Herod's Temple.)
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I remind you unbelievers here that John was writing the Revelation of Jesus Christ when he wrote Re 11:3-13. This means Jesus was revealing it. He knew about Herod's Temple and John wrote this revelation in 94 AD, some 24 years after a fulfilled prophesy of Jesus concerning the temple.

So, what do you think? Another temple must be built for this prophesy to be real. Lets look at some more words of prophesy from Jesus in Mt 24. His disciples asked him 3 questions. Here they are.

Mt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

This conversation took place on Tuesday before Jesus was crucified on Friday.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, 1) when shall these things be? and 2) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and 3) of the end of the world? Aion = age.

Here is his answer;

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end (of the age) is not yet.

I won't quote all the verses of his next division but you shoul read verses 7-13 for what he says about the progression of time and what happens in it. I will quote verse 13;

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end (of the age), the same shall be saved.

Still he has not answered the question, "what will be the sign of the end of the age?"

Now you need to pay special attention to my next quote because he is giving the sign of the end of the age;

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (of the age) come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The sign will appear when all the world will have heard the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ, that it is at hand. It is the same gospel that was preached in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, though it includes it. The belief of this gospel assures one is a citizen of the coming kingdom of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Christ that we preach today assures the believer he will be in the church, the body of Christ.

The sign then is in Verse 15 and is stated so plainly that no one should miss it.

What is the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel. Well, I will quote him to see. I don't have room for whole context but encourage you to read it.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

When this sacrice is made in the temple, it is the end of the age, according to Jesus, and no one will be saved going forward until the end of the indignation, which is the great tribulation which lasts for 3 1/2 years or 360 days. The Day of the LORD is now come, which is another age.

Paul, in his letter adds details.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No one who is not saved can be saved after this event takes place. The day of Christ is the same time frame as the day of the Lord, only it refers to the church, which will be judged in heaven for her works while the day of the LORD will be on the earth and the judgement will be for cleansing the earth of sinners by fire.

The point of all this is however, to show that Jesus Christ saw a temple on the earth that was later than Herod's temple.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The holy place is in the temple. None of these things happened when Titus destroyed Herod's temple. This temple is not yet built.

Re 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

This is a long post and I apologize for the length, but you need to see from scripture that a temple will be in existence after Herod's temple. We read about it in Re 11.

 

So, let me get your intentions right. You believe that the word "signifying" means it is not to be taken literally and is just imagery.

How do Jews kill people? Answer; by stoning them.

How would they have killed Jesus Christ if not for the Romans, who governed their nation? Answer; By stoning him?

How do Romans kill criminals? By crucifixion on a cross.

Who put Jesus to death? The Romans.

Why? Because the Jews were not allowed by the Romans to execute criminals.

So now we understand this word signifying to mean that he was literally lifted up between heaven and earth on a cross to die.

So, you are claiming that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on a Roman cross is not to be taken litrally, but it is just spititual language that means something else and you do not know what it is?????

The cross of Jesus Christ is not just a picture of something else. It is a fundamental of the faith and your preaching here that it is not true is far more troubling than anything you have said thus far.

I am under the impression that you and AustinC are on the same page, doubting the truths in the Revelation and are trying to prove it. If I am wrong about that I apologize. I hope I am wrong.

 

As we are TAUGHT that we are to do:

(Sam Storms) "That “fire” should proceed “out of their mouths” points again to the symbolic nature of both the witnesses and the ministry they are described as fulfilling. ... This is clearly a metaphor of the effect and fruit of his spoken word, whether it be of judgment or blessing (cf. John 12:48 (“the word I spoke is what will judge him on the last day”).

We read of this same imagery in Jer. 5:14,

“Therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, ‘Because you have spoken this word, behold I am making My words in your mouth fire and this people wood, and it will consume them’” (cf. also Ps. 18:13).

Oil and Fire are both types of The Holy Spirit.
...

I am going to take the candlesticks in Zechariah, as a Prophecy of The Lord's churches, as they are described in Revelation 1, when he says, "he shall bring forth the headstone", the foundation of this house; "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20.

Zechariah 4:2b; "...I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3 "And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."

"6 "Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

7 "Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it."

9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house (the Headstone, "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20
"upon this Rock" (Matthew 16:18); his hands shall also finish it (Jesus will finish the building of His church Organization/ Organism); "and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you."

A Temple in the Lord as prophecied by Daniel and Zechariah:

Ephesians 2:19; "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, (the Saved members of the church at Ephesus) and of the household of God (the Saved, assembling, members of the church at Ephesus);

20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together (the Saved, assembling, members of the church at Ephesus) groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 "In whom ye also are builded together (the Saved, assembling, members of the church at Ephesus) for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God (the Saved, assembling, members of the church at Corinth); as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." 2 Corinthians 6:16



(Sam Storms) "But precisely what is meant, practically speaking, by the imagery of the church, through her ministry, stopping the rain, turning water into blood, and smiting the earth with plagues?

Is the idea that God will, in response to the preaching, praying, and prophesying of the church, pour out his judgments on an unbelieving world? Beale suggests that “the church’s prophetic declaration of God’s truth concerning the gospel, including the message of final judgment, unleashes torments toward those who remain ultimately impenitent” (584).

See also 11:10 where the two witnesses are described as having “tormented” the earth-dwellers. Is the torment equal to the trumpet judgments?

Is the church and its ministry one of the means by which the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments are poured out?

Is the torment psychological in nature, as, for example, when Paul preached to Felix and provoked this response:

“And as he [Paul] was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, ‘Go away for the present, and when I find time, I will summon you’” (Acts 24:25)?

"The church not only brings comfort, consolation, and joy to the repentant, it also brings discomfort, conviction, and consternation to those who continue to resist the truth of the gospel.

(Sam Storms) "The “harm” noted here (v. 5) is that from which the “witnesses” (church) are protected as a result of their having been “measured” (v. 1).

As Beale notes, “they may undergo bodily, economic, political, or social harm, but their eternal covenant status with God will not be affected. . . . Though they may suffer and even die, they will invincibly and successfully carry out the spiritual mission for which they have been ‘measured’ and commissioned” (579)."

The churches of The Lord Jesus Christ (the Candlesticks, just as the 7 churches of Asia, in Revelation 2 &3) are meant as one of the Two Witnesses and The Word of God Accompanied by The Holy Spirit; "these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil" (The Holy Spirit) "out of themselves?", is the other.

Both appear to "die". Even in this Age, currently.

Where are The Candlesticks and the Unadulterated Word of God?

(Sam Storms quoting Beale/ both GREAT, BTW; see: https://www.samstorms.org/all-articles/keyword/how-to-interpret-the-bible) "First of all, the powers of each of these two OT figures are attributed to both of the two witnesses, not divided between them (11:5-6). They are, as Beale notes, “identical prophetic twins” (575).

Both the churches of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Word of God are anointed and "standing before the God of the earth" Revelation 4:11.

Are the local churches of The Lord Jesus Christ, like those assembling and "contending for the Faith", in Revelations 2&3 still here?

Can the Bible be found that is The Word of God that we can trust with our souls and its Teachings to be True? Most people here on BB are highly suspect of The KJV, for example.

Well then, where is the "more sure word of prophecy", i.e., more sure than God's Old Testament Prophets); step up! where is it?

"My Words they are Spirit and they are Life" (John 6:63)

Most people would probably say these Two Witnesses (the churches of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Word of God) are dead and thus this Revelation Prophecy is being fulfilled, NOW.

...

You're not the first one, but it is all unnecessary from the standpoint of having been Taught how to interpret Biblical pictures and images, from the Old Testament, The Gospels, and the didactic New Testament (generally straightforward, literal Teaching Books), before we get to the last Book in the Bible, written in an Apocyleptic and, therefore, symbolic/ figurative genre.

Sam Storms' audios on the Book of Revelation (the last ones first)/are probably pretty good; I'll have to take a listen.

 

Not to hijack The Two Witnesses, but here are a bunch of symbols, regarding "time", as mentioned in Revelation, per the OP.

To these, that cover the same time period of "the whole of this present church era, spanning from the exaltation and ascension of Christ to his second advent/coming, during which time the beast oppresses and persecutes the people of God" (specifically as assembled as His churches).

I believe we can add, "The Acceptable Year of the Lord, from Isaiah 61:2 & Luke 4:19* and "Today is the Day of Salvation" (2 Corinthians 6:2d)

and many others, including, "a thousand years" (Revelation 20).

*Notice Luke 4:19, says and stops at, "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" where Jesus says, "21 "And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

What was not fulfilled that day was in the prophecy from Isaiah, after the comma, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;"

That day of the day of vengeance of our God was not fulfilled in Jesus Day, but is yet to come, isn't it?

...
Sam Storms: 42 Months, 1,260 Days, 3½ Years, a time, times, and half a time (Revelation 11:vv. 2-3)

What is the meaning of 42 months and 1260 days and 3½ years?

Are these references to some chronologically precise period of time that you might mark on a calendar, or are they a symbolic reference to any period of time, regardless of duration, in which certain characteristic features and events are prominent?

Once again, dispensationalists who take Revelation in a strictly futuristic sense argue that this is a reference to 3½ years of the so-called 7-year Great Tribulation that is yet to come.

I would contend, instead, that the period 42 months = 1260 days = 3½ years = time, times, half a time, is a reference to the whole of this present church era, spanning from the exaltation and ascension of Christ to his second advent/coming, during which time the beast oppresses and persecutes the people of God.

In other words, the question before us is this: is the period 42 months = 1260 days = 3 ½ years = time, times, half a time chronological (hence, literal) or theological (hence, symbolic)?

Does it refer to a quantity of time or to the quality of a period of time? I believe it is the latter.

The first thing we observe is that the expression in Daniel 7:25 is not in terms of years, days, months, weeks or any such chronological measure.

Rather, we read of a “time, times, and half a time,” by which we may take Daniel to mean 1 + 2 + ½ = 3½. But 3½ what? In Revelation there are several texts in which a similar if not identical designation is found:

• Rev. 11:2 = 42 months = the period during which the nations will trample the holy city.
• Rev. 11:3 = 1260 days (or 42 months of 30 days each) = the period during which the two witnesses will prophesy.
• Rev. 12:6 = 1260 days = the period during which the “woman” is nourished by God in the wilderness.
• Rev. 12:14 = a time, times, and half a time = the period during which the “woman” is nourished in the wilderness.
• Rev. 13:5 = 42 months = the period during which the beast acts with authority and blasphemes.

One’s understanding of these time references will depend on how one interprets the events prophesied to occur within each respective period.

Suffice it to say that in my view these designations (42 months = 1260 days = time, times, and half a time = 3½ years) all refer to the entire present age intervening between the two comings of Christ.

In other words, they are but literary variations for the same period. It is the period of persecution and tyranny, during which the people of God are oppressed and martyred. I do not believe that either Daniel or John intended us to take these references as chronologically precise periods that may be specified on a calendar.

In the OT book of Daniel the number 3½ is described as “a time, times, and half a time.”

But that isn’t what we expect, is it?

We expect there to be a “time”, after which comes two “times”, after which comes “four times.”

But instead of the expression four times, we read merely of a half time. The point is that the “beast” will hold sway for a time. His tyranny will increase in strength and intensity. This is represented by the word times.

“We should then expect that the intensity of his rule will double, but instead of that we are told merely that it will be for a half time, thus signifying that his power is cut off, just when it seemed to be increasing towards its fullness.” (E. J. Young, The Messianic Prophecies of Daniel, 52-53).

There is evidence both in the OT and outside it that the number 3½ gradually became a stereotypical or stock designation in apocalyptic literature for a period of persecution and distress, regardless of its chronological duration.

As for references to this time frame in biblical literature, note the 3½ years of drought during the ministry of Elijah and the rule of Ahab and Jezebel in 1 Kings 17-18; Luke 4:25; James 5:17. It was also approximately 3½ years that Antiochus Epiphanes persecuted the Jewish people by defiling the temple.

The reference to 42 months is possibly taken from the 42 years of Israel’s wilderness wandering (the initial 2 years followed by the 40 God inflicted upon her).

Or it may allude to the 42 stations or encampments of Israel while in the wilderness (Num. 33:5ff.). Others suggest that 3½ signifies a broken 7, and thus becomes a symbol for the interruption of the Divine order by the malice of Satan and evil men, a period of unrest and trouble.

In light of this, I believe that the period is simply an expression for the time of tyranny until the end comes, the period of eschatological crisis, the age of persecution and pilgrimage for the people of God however long it may be.

“The figure [thus] becomes a symbol like the red cross or the swastika, a shorthand way of indicating the period during which the ‘nations,’ the unbelievers, seem to dominate the world, but the ‘people,’ God’s people, maintain their witness in it” (Wilcock, I Saw Heaven Opened, 106).

Therefore, John is not attempting to tell us how long the Beast will hold sway, as if by 3½, 42, 1260, etc., he is specifying a period that is chronologically precise. It is not the length but the kind of time that is meant.

In other words, 3½ and 42 and 1260 are not a description of the chronological quantity of the period but rather of its spiritual and theological quality."

...

Note: "a thousand years" seems to be "an endless period of time", but it is a period of time that is FINITE.

Our present Age of churches, the Inter-Advental Period, "spanning from the exaltation and ascension of Christ to his second advent/coming" will come to an End.

see: AustinC's link; The 1,000 Years of Revelation 20 – CPRC
It is superb.

 

Look what I found in .pdf!!

I love this guy. He has such a wonderful, loving, Spirit. Especially, in his dealings with those who have different views of "The End Times".

I believe everyone should get his book, "The High King of Heaven: Discovering the Master Keys to the Great End Time Debate".

I read it 4 times from just checking it out of the library, before I could buy it!

The .pdf; The Great End Time Debate by Dean Davis.

All good, then with stuff like,
"Part III: Understanding Old Testament Kingdom Prophecy
&
7. New Testament Principles for Interpreting Old Testament Kingdom
Prophecy".

= Excellent.

He goes into Revelation, too & Revelation 20.

A Must Read.