Featured Symbols in the word of God.

You do not need a Bible. In fact, a Bible is a hindrance to you. Imagine Jesus Christ saying the great tribulation would be a one time affair with nothing like it before and nothing like it following. Now, in one paragraph you have named at least 5 or 6 great tribulations and none like he described. Rarely do you ever write anything that makes me think you believe anything the scriptures say.

I wonder at your imagination.

 

I understand that you really don't understand the large number of Old Testament passages that John points us toward in Revelation. You refuse to acknowledge that the Church is the true Israel of the Promise and that John is showing his readers the mystery which they had not understood until Jesus revealed it to them.
I understand that you are so married to a bad eschatology in dispensationalism that you cannot grasp the symbolic message of Revelation. You imagine that Christians, having their heads chopped off, being brutally tortured by a demonic State, is somehow not a great tribulation to our brothers. You keep pushing it off to the future even though our brothers and sisters around the globe are experiencing it now. But, God has been very gracious to us here. This will end and then you will realize the tribulation that already consumes our brothers. Or, you will cling to a fantasy and wonder where God is when you are not raptured.

 

I have read the OT many times. I know what it says and what it does not say. What it does not say is what you say it says. You are making things up and you will not accept logic and reason and plain definitions of words when it comes to the scriptures. It takes much more faith to believe the unsupported imaginations of men than it does to believe what God says and to honor the context when he says it.

You cannot prove the things you teach and I want to be the first to thank you for not trying. It would be a disaster. But, having said all that, it is not my wish to just be right in order to win an argument, but to try to cause you to think and be reasonable, understanding that God is able to say what he means and mean what he says. It is the only thing that will help you.

Your teaching is harmful to a lot of readers.

 

Yet, you are so unaware of how John points us to the Old Covenant continually in order to help us understand the Revelation of Jesus. You seem unaware that the Beast is already revealed to Daniel and it was around in his day. How is it that you don't understand?

 

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is a prophesy. I did not say that, I read it from the lips of Jesus Christ. Here!

Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Two things about these 22 chapters. The blessing goes to the person who reads the words and the people who hears the words and keeps them. You are reading them but you are not hearing them and you are not keeping them.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Re 2:28-29 And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Re 3:5-6 Re He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Re 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Re 3:20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Re 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The church of Jesus Christ has not been judged yet and these rewards have not been administered even at this time in which we live. These words are not just filler to make the Revelation a longer epistle. They have meaning and they are a promise. The determination of the overcomer will be in heaven and will take place for the church in Re 4- 5, after it is taken up by the sound of the trumpet and the voice of God in Re 4:1. It will return collectively to the earth with Jesus Christ in Re 19 when he returns to rule and reign for a thousand years in Jerusalem on the throne of David and over the whole earth that he purges of all sinners that are left on it when he comes.

You are not overcoming false teaching, you are teaching falsely. You are relegating the great truths of the Revelation to senseless imaginations that have no warrant in scriptures.

 

It is a prophetic Revelation of what God has been doing since Adam and Eve fell in the garden. Prophecy is not always future looking. In fact, the prophet was considered false if what s/he said didn't find some fulfillment in their lifetime.
John is being given a "thus says the Lord" prophetic vision that reveals God's work in the heavenly places that the old testament writers only had glimpses. That's why it's a revelation, JD.
When you push everything into the future you do an injustice to the letter, which applies to every generation of readers. It's too bad you're stuck in a false construct of dispensationalism that truly misses the point of the whole.

 

Point #1
The prophecy does not say John appeared in the garden of Eden. It says he was on the isle of Patmos "on the Lord's day." Nowhere is the first day of creation referred to as the Lord's day. You are just being silly by suggesting things that are not remotely true. The last day in the week of 6 one thousand years days is called by 12 prophets in 17 Bible books, "the day of the LORD." That is just a fact. 2 Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Now, this is the last day of the week of one thousand year days, but it is not the last day. There is an eternal day after this that is called "the day of God."

Notice the context of the day of the LORD is hastening the day of God which is congruent with the eternal state in the new heaven and the new earth after the completion of the week in time. Follow the logic and reason with the scriptures.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What does that mean to you?

Mt 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Lu 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

In the scriptures, the eighth day is new beginnings. Sunday after the sabbath, the third day, was also the first day and is a new beginning. Think about all the things in scripture that will be made new, beginning with the "new man" the collective church of Jesus Christ, made up of new creatures who are born anew by the Spirit of Christ that indwells those who repent and believe God concerning his death, burial, and resurrection.

Point #2

Prophesy is future, otherwise it is either present or it is historical. The fact that anyone with a limited education should be able to understand the 3 divisions in the Revelation and understand the instructions for John to write the things he had seen, a vision of the glorified Jesus Christ, the things which are, the 7 churches that actually existed in the province of Asia in what is now Turkey when John wrote the Revelation, and the things that will be hereafter. None of these things from Re 4 on through the testimony has happened yet. What is wrong with believing the words?

 

I didn't say that John appeared in the Garden. I said that he wrote the Revelation from the fall at the Garden and onward until Jesus established His Kingdom forever and ever.

Notice this verse that tells you what John saw:
*Revelation 1:19*
Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

Notice that Jesus tells us the images John sees will be past, present, and future things. Jesus is revealing the mystery that he had Daniel seal up.

It's all connected, but you refuse to see or accept the connection. This is to your loss as you cannot know the immediate joy of reading Revelation if you imagine it is all future events.

When a Pastor declares "thus says the Lord" from the Bible, he is acting as a prophet of God. Not all prophecy is future telling. It is also forth telling. This is why the gift of prophesy has not ended. When we declare the authoritative word of God to someone we are functioning as a prophet to that person.

 

We are introduced to John the apostle in the gospel accounts. He was probably about 30 years old at the time he was chosen to be an apostle. He would not have been alive during the days when Adam was in the Garden of Eden. He would have seen nothing during the time of the prophets of God, except for John the Baptist.

What John was instructed to write about was from the time that the Lord appeared to him on the isle of Patmos. The only thing he had seen was the vision of the glorified Jesus Christ. You are trying to force your theology on a text where it will not fit, because you do not believe the words.

 

Do you know what a vision is?

I am allowing John to show me the picture book and the panels to the mosaic. I, unlike you, am not trying to force a chronological timeline where there is none. I, unlike you, am not trying to force a rapture into Revelation where there is none.

Indeed, you force a man-made dispensational theory, created in the late 1800s, into your reading of Revelation, rather than follow John's vast references to the Old Testament.

You can have your dispensationalism. You will be very disappointed as nothing you imagine actually happens that way. In fact, I know many dispensationalists for which their theory of Revelation has become an idol, which they worship.

 

Everything in Revelation from 4:1 on, is in the future?

 

So, this is all going to happen in the future? That's how I'm supposed to be Blessed by reading it?(?)

 

Jerusalem, A.D. 70.

 

Why did Jesus have John write it then?

Are you SUUUUURE?

 

Is that what this is, below?

Just wondering. I don't know why I care(?)

 

Concerning point #1) above;

Yes, I actually do know what a vision is.

Concerning point #2) above;

You are doing something John is not asking you to do. John is nowhere claiming he is presenting a mosaic, with panels in it. You made that one up. He is stating that he is writing the testimony of Jesus Christ. I have already showed you in three different places in the epistle where Jesus is making this claim that the Revelation is his personal testimony. He promises a blessing to all them who read, hear, and keep the words of this book. I will strive to do that. I will believe the words. I will look at the structure of this prophesy in the division he has assigned in the beginning, the things you have seen, the things that are, and the things that shall be hereafter. That is easy enough to understand, especially when the division is given clearly in the text. It is past, present, and future.

Which brings me to point #3 above, timeline.

This division is not forced on the epistle, it is demanded. Past, present and future is chronological by its nature. I am not sure how you can miss that. So look at what our Lord Jesus said about the present tense churches;

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is (present tense), and which was (past tense), and which is to come (future tense); and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
This present tense is in context of the churches until chapter 4,where it is obvious by the language that he is moving from present things to future things. Here, do not take my word for it, read it for yourself;

Re 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

That would be the future tense. Things that will be hereafter the churches. Consider this, even the different promises he made to the overcomers of each of those 7 of the churches he had adressed are to be given in the future, in the hereafter. This will take place in heaven, it is a prophesy, and the churches are still on the earth as you and I communicate in this thread, which means the prophesy has not been fulfilled.

The following statement is in the context of the churches, not creation, therefore Jesus Christ is claiming to be the beginning of the church and also the end of the church.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John is the voice of the prophesy and represents the churches. He went up to heaven in Re 4:1.

BTW, this is not the only place in scripture where Jesus claims to be the beginning of the church AT HIS RESURRECTION. I will show you one for this exercise.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

When the church is in heaven, it will be complete and these judgements in heaven and earth will all take place just as John describes them.

Concerning point #4) above;

This is not dispensationalism, it is common sense and an example of believing the words that are presented to us from heaven. You have trained yourself not to believe them but to believe heretics that have imagined a sytematic theology that has all but a few verses in the whole 66 books of the Bible to be nothing more than a spiritualized mess.

I am calling on you to stop treating the scriptures in such a manner and to believe God and his words. You are deceiving and confusing people with your doctrines.There are none of the promised blessings to be had that way because "keeping" the words are part of getting the blessing.

 

#1

#2

#3

#4

#1 Verse 1 in chapter 4 begins and ends with the word "after." I do not think our Lord wanted us to miss the future things he said would take place after the churches went to heaven.
#2 The blessing does not coming by reading only, but by hearing and keeping the words. Read it. You will see I am not lying to you.
#3 The days were not shortened in AD 70. The coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds to deliver Israel, his elect, did not happen at that time. Think!
#4 I am sure. Jesus had John to write it as his testimony, and for the church, it assures the promises of his testimony, which includes ruling and reighning with him.

For someone who is not expectant of his promises, he might not care.

 

*Revelation 1:19*
Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

JD, why do you ignore what Jesus told John. Notice that John would write of things that happened in the past, in the present, and in the future.

But, your dispensational eschatology tells you to ignore the first two and demand all be in the future.

What you do is you emasculate the word of God as a blessing to the present reader. Yet, God tells us the reader and hearer of this book will be (present tense) blessed.

Please acknowledge that you have effectively removed the practical truths of this book to today's reader. For you, you would have to be raptured (and miss all the practical lessons) out before anything becomes practical and blessed to the reader.

Thankfully, your eschatology is wrong and the reader/listener can find great encouragement in this present time, knowing that Jesus has already won. We can know that our perseverance is not in vain.

One day you will see how blessed this book is for your present life.

 

Okay. I will be pleased to miss them, and you may go on and receive the blessings of the plagues, and if we meet again somewhere in eternity you can explain then how great it was for you.

 

You misunderstand. You have already gone through a plague and God protected you (COVID-19). God has been amazing gracious to us in the midst of tribulation. He will be amazingly gracious when he orders evil in our lives.
You won't miss anything so you better wrap your mind around it when you face tribulation.