Featured Behold!... I Stand At The Door And Knock

The Bible defines 'he that overcomes' and Revelation says 'spit out of His mouth'.

I don't know about "cast out" having to do with ' spit out of His mouth', in Revelation 3.

Are you equating 'spit out of His mouth' with 'cast out, in the sense of "they will be lost?

...like when Satan was cast out Revelation 22:9; "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him"

...or when "the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"? Matthew 8:12

Then, are you sincerely trying to say you are making "He that overcomes will be with Christ"

... and saying that, "He that doesn't overcome will not be with Christ"/ not in supping or fellowship or communion with Christ and not being Blessed by His Presence, and hindering their worship of Him in their church assembly,

...after all the other instances of not overcoming were saved people who He loved and Commanded to Repent, just like in Revelation 3:19?

...but that, "He that doesn't overcome will be not be with Christ" is supposed to mean in the sense that they were lost and "cast out into outer darkness"?

...and that 'spit them out of His mouth' was that they were lost and stayed lost?

I can see how you could guess that but it would require ignoring the context and usage of overcome and an understanding of His threat to take His churches' Candlestick, with the Blessing of His Personal Presence, as in, "These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;"

And it probably would have been a lot easier had a graven image not been produced from which some have built their doctrine.

Not everyone has, or believes, about a New Testament church, as the habitation of God through the Spirit, and to not just assume every gathering has a Candlestick of JESUS' Presence that He could threaten to or actually remove and write Ichabod over the door, that "the Glory of the Lord has departed".

That is a dead church assembly.

"Unto God be Glory in the church" does not happen there, as God design for how He to be worshipped, in a New Testament church that is right with God, doctrinally, practically, and organizationally.

If there are still Candlesticks and they are not just any 'church assembly', what does it take to have it, or lose it.

Jesus tells us.

And expresses losing it as 'spewing them out of His mouth'.

At Laodicea Jesus was ALREADY ON THE OUTSIDE.

We have to assume there are myriad religious Congregations, almost countless or an extremely great number, that Jesus considers dead in this way.

He's not there. Why would He be?
When most are operating in opposition to Him and His Cause?

They have been 'spewed out' but not to Hell, if they are saved.

Personal worship is one thing. Where people are gathered and Jesus is in the mist of them is when they are organized "in My Name, in church capacity, as is the
Context of Matthew 16 & 18 when Jesus is using the word 'church' (tell it to the church) the same way He does here in Revelation, local organized church assemblies congregating In His Name. That is when Jesus is in the mist of two or three gathered together, in My Name; not just any random group of people, saved or not.

 

I was trying to say,

"The Bible defines 'he that overcomes' and The Bible says and Revelation also defines 'spit out of His mouth'.

I'm an Artist, maybe I could make out better painting you a picture.

 

Perusing this thread I don't see my POV, so I'll chime in. I used to see it as being an invitation to lost people, viewing the Laodicean church as apostate because (as someone else pointed out):
1. They are spiritually poor and blind and naked.
2. They are told to buy white robes, which elsewhere are a symbol of salvation.

However, when I discussed this with my son the PhD, he pointed out that the Laodicean church still has a lampstand, meaning it is not yet apostate. The Lord threatens to take away their lampstand, a symbol of being a true church, but has not done so yet.

Conclusions:
1. The church is on the verge of going apostate but has not gone yet.
2. Therefore, though there are lost people in the church, there are also saved people.
3. I conclude that the verse, which is an illustration and not a doctrinal statement, is an invitation to both lost and saved people to get right with the Lord.

By the way, my son has written an excellent little book on the background of the seven churches. You can find it here on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Where-Your-Allegiance-Message-Churches/dp/1631994093/ref=sr_1_1?crid=330KZWPUQAPG2&keywords=Paul+A.+Himes+Where+is+your+Allegiance?&qid=1678985573&sprefix=paul+a.+himes+where+is+your+allegiance+,aps,87&sr=8-1

 

Thanks John. I have found Robert H Mounce commentary on the 7 churches to be the gold standard.

 

Revelation 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I would like us to keep a couple of things in mind, concern is text in the O.P.

There is a painting in existence that has been referenced by some and as a consequence, a new doctrine has been generated, by forming an 'interpretation' based on some rather damaging extra-Biblical additions to the text that were taken from that painting and the Artist's story behind it.

Let me ask if you are able to remove these additions back out of the text and delete them from your mind.

Here goes, with additions from what termed a graven image in red.

Revelation 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door "to your heart",

and knock: "on the door to your heart"

"I do not have a handle on my side of the door to your heart, so"

if any man, "saved or lost"

hear my voice, and

"if you will use the handle you have to your heart and"

open the door "to your heart"

I will come in to him "with the gift of Eternal Life",

and will sup with him, and he with me, "if you are saved"

and will sup(?) with him, "forever" and he with me, "if you were lost and just received Eternal Life.

Any chance of going back and deleting all of those words on red back out of your head?

What are they doing there in the first place?

They came from a picture.

This comes from a "Bible Commentary"(?);

EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)
MacLaren's Expositions
Revelation

CHRIST AT THE DOOR

Revelation 3:20.

"Many of us are familiar, I dare say, with the devoutly imaginative rendering of the first part of these wonderful words, which we owe to the genius of a living painter. In it we see the fast shut door..."

"I venture to take this great text, and ask you to look with me at the three things that lie in it;

"the suppliant for admission;

"the door opened;

"the entrance, and the feast.

"What is the door? This closed heart of man"..."And the ‘any man’ which follows is wide enough to warrant us in stretching out the representation as far as the bounds of humanity extend, and in believing that wherever there is a closed heart there is a knocking Christ, and that all men are lightened by that Light which came into the world."

"The saying is true about thee, and at the door of thy heart Jesus Christ stands, and there His gentle, mighty hand is laid, and on it the flashes of His light shine, and through the chinks of the unopened door of thy heart comes the beseeching voice, Open! Open unto Me.’

So, then, there is here a revelation, not only of a universal truth, but a most tender and pathetic disclosure of Christ’s yearning love to each of us. What do you call that emotion which more than anything else desires that a heart should open and let it enter?"

That's enough.

We can't say that for sure, at all, like that, because there is not a word breathed about lost people being there, or if so, whether or not Jesus had any intention of addressing them in any way. It's an argument from extreme silence, so we know we'd just be taking a guess and adding it all into the scriptures.

But, we'll grant a.) lost people were there and b.) Jesus was saying something to them.

Jesus waited until the Book of Revelation to reveal a reversal of roles in His Way of saving people and produced another Gospel?

See next:

Look what the illustration painted by an Artist produced and does to Jesus' illustration, if we grant the addition of, "the door to your heart",

"no handle to the door of the heart on the outside",

but "a handle to a lost soul's heart" they have on the inside of their heart that they can decide to open", etc.

We have a sudden reversal of rolls in the Eternal Plan of Salvation?

From MacLaren's 'Commentary';

"A strange reversal of the attitudes

of the great and of the lowly,

of the giver and of the receiver,

of the Divine and of the human!

"Christ once said, "Knock and it shall be opened unto you."

"But He has taken the suppliant’s place, and, standing by the side of each of us."

(by the lost it says)

"they are once more brought into the presence of that rejected, patient, wooing Lord, who courts them for their souls, as if they were, which indeed they are, too precious to be lost, as long as there is a ghost of a chance that they may still listen to His voice."

"according to this representation, ‘the door’ has no handle outside, and is so hinged that it opens from within, outwards.

"Which, being taken out of metaphor and put into fact, means this, you are the only being that can open the door for Christ to come in.

"The whole responsibility, brother, of accepting or rejecting God’s gracious Word, which comes to you all in good faith, lies with yourself.

I am not going to plunge into theological puzzles, but I appeal to consciousness.

"You know as well as I do - better a great deal, for it is yourself that is in question - that at each time when your heart and conscience have been brought in contact with the offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, if you had liked you could have opened the door, and welcomed His entrance.

"And you know that nobody and nothing kept it fast except only yourselves."

...

There's more, but all this isn't saying much for Jesus Christ.

‘Ye will not come to Me,’ said Christ, ‘that ye might have life.’

And, it's all the lie of the devil.

From a picture!

A totally false representation of Jesus Christ and Salvation.

How does someone Worship God and use something directly crossways with His Word? at the same time?

That's all I'm saying.

 

It is. I am beginning to have real concerns about any camp that is so against this. I just cannot understand why that is.

 

I'll take this as a, "no", DaveXR650.

❤️

A lost soul's ❤️.

The addition of a lost soul's ❤️ to the Bible passage.

The addition of the word ❤️ (to preach heresy) doesn't do it for you?

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add ❤️unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" Revelation 22:18.

You can't get the word ❤️ back out of there can you?

It's stuck?

Who put ❤️ in there for you?

Because, it wasn't God.

He's big enough to write what He means, like the above caution.

And God said, "door" didn't He?

But, I can't tell you what to believe.

I'm just saying that I'm not going to be telling a lost person a lie of the Devil, concerning their lost ❤️ that "God can't open, but they can, because it's just no so and why would I think about doing that to start with, since "heart" is simply not in the text? and adding it makes it untrue?

That would be an unmitigated disaster and real concern, between me and God and His concern for the lost to be preached the Gospel.....(?)

Not to "open their ❤️"!

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20.

 

@John of Japan and @DaveXR650 where does the word "invite" show up in the Bible in relation to salvation?
Does my question stir any understanding on your part?

 

Austin. I don't want to speak for John because I don't know him or where he is on this. But my view would just be that any situation in the New Testament, especially Acts, where you have Peter or Paul and Silas or Barnabas going out you have the following occur. The gospel message is preached. And let's just say it's "Christ and Him crucified". We know that some believe the message. There has to be a way of connecting to this message. And if someone had said, "What does this have to do with me?" would you not tell them that they could believe and be baptized or something like that? Well, that's an "invitation". Because at some level, Calvinist or not, you have to have a direct and conscious connection between the person and the gospel.

"I stand at the door and knock", leaving the 99 to look for one sheep, gathering people together like a hen gathers her chicks, laying down His life for the sheep - are all good to use as illustrations of Christ coming to seek and to save that which was lost. Christ says he is meek and lowly and his burden is light. He tells us to act in a similar way. I am just a little concerned about the impression given when this is considered such a heresy.

 

Me neither!

 

Many passages. Try just a couple.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

In particular, it is said that Matthew 11:28-30 is the most common passage in the Bible drawing Japanese people to Christ. They are a nation of workaholics, always weary. One day a delivery truck driver saw our church sign, which had this passage on it, and called me. He came to our house in Yokohama, heard the Gospel, and trusted Christ as Savior. Being from the other side of Tokyo, he couldn't come to our church, but went to a good church I told him about, was baptized, became a faithful member, and married a nice young lady from that church.

 

Some Calvinists attribute the public invitation to Finney, but that is not true. Baptist historian H. Leon McBeth wrote, "The Separates apparently helped popularize what is now known as the 'evangelistic invitation.'"

He then quotes Robert I. Devin (A History of Grassy Creek Baptist Church, p. 69): "At the close of the sermon, the minister would come down from the pulpit and while singing a suitable hymn would go around among the brethren shaking hands. The hymn being sung, he would then extend an invitation to such persons as felt themselves poor guilty sinners, and were anxiously inquiring the way of salvation, to come forward and kneel near the stand." McBeth then writes, "The separates thus devised a method of encouraging on-the-spot religious decisions, to the singing of a hymn, well before the revivals of Charles G. Finney, who is often credited with inventing the invitation."
H. Leon McBeth, The Baptist Heritage (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1987), 231.

But the public invitation goes way back to the early church. Streett talks about the preaching of John Chrysostom (347-407), Patrick (390-461), etc. He documents the fact that in the 12th century Bernard of Clairvaux would ask for a show of hands after his messages.
R. Alan Streett The Effective Invitation (Grand Rapids: Revell, 1984).

Sorry, I don't have the page number or full quotes from that second one. I'm at the college, giving my students a Doctrines 2 midterm.

 

John, I am surprised by the verses you picked since none of them state that a person must "invite" Jesus.
In both instances, it is Jesus who is doing the inviting and the sinner is coming to Christ.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood. But the fact that people are invited to Christ is very Scriptural. So the public invitation is Scriptural--though I see that you were not opposing that per se. Out of time! The students are back from break.

 

I don't disagree. How can they hear without a preacher?
My question regarding salvation is the teaching that a person can "invite" Jesus into their heart. Rev 3:20 is often used to convey that thought, even though Rev 3:20 says nothing of the sort.

 

I guess when I read guys like John Bunyan in "Saved By Grace", I see his theology of God's sovereignty as being more of an emphasis on just what lengths and over the top astounding love and preparation goes into the salvation of an individual. This is contrasted to an emphasis on proper exegesis and a tendency to use God's sovereignty as a way to LIMIT or hinder people from coming to Christ. It is indeed outrageous and astounding to see Jesus standing at the door of someone's heart and entreating them to come. But yet most of these Calvinist Puritans looked at God as doing this very thing and they were very aware of how outrageous it is. Here's Bunyan:

"To see a prince entreat a beggar to receive an alms would be a strange sight; to see a king entreat the traitor to accept of
mercy would be a stranger sight than that; but to see God entreat a sinner, to hear Christ say, 'I stand at the door and
knock,' with a heart full and a heaven full of grace to bestow upon him that opens, this is such a sight as dazzles the eyes
of angels. What sayest now, sinner? Is not this God rich in mercy? Hath not this God great love for sinners?"

I'm not sure what the objection is to this kind of imagery. Bunyan was in no way saying that God is not sovereign in this whole thing. He does show a lot of concern for the fact that in those days it seemed a common objection was that Jesus would not receive someone who had been a sinner and folks were afraid they could not come to Jesus. He seemed to be trying everything to convince people that this was not the case.

 

It’s not a plea. It’s a statement of fact.

Take it or leave it.