1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured 2 Thess. 2:13-14, What does it say? pt2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Apr 27, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    2 Thessalonians 2 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

    Here observe, I. The consolation the Thessalonians might take against the terrors of this apostasy, v. 13, 14. For they were chosen to salvation, and called to the obtaining of glory. Note, When we hear of the apostasy of many, it is matter of great comfort and joy that there is a remnant according to the election of grace which does and shall persevere; and especially we should rejoice if we have reason to hope that we are of that number. The apostle reckoned himself bound in duty to be thankful to God on this account: We are bound to give thanks to God always for you. He had often given thanks on their behalf, and he is still abounding in thanksgiving for them; and there was good reason, because they were beloved by the Lord, as appeared in this matter—their security from apostatizing. This preservation of the saints is owing,

    1. To the stability of the election of grace, v. 13. Therefore were they beloved of the Lord, because God had chosen them from the beginning. He had loved them with an everlasting love. Concerning this election of God we may observe, (1.) The eternal date of it—it is from the beginning; not the beginning of the gospel, but the beginning of the world, before the foundation of the world, Eph 1 4. Then, (2.) The end to which they were chosen—salvation, complete and eternal salvation from sin and misery, and the full fruition of all good. (3.) The means in order to obtaining this end—sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth. The decree of election therefore connects the end and the means, and these must not be separated. We are not the elected of God because we were holy, but that we might be holy. Being chosen of God, we must not live as we list; but, if we are chosen to salvation as the end, we must be prepared for it by sanctification as the necessary means to obtain that end, which sanctification is by the operation of the Holy Spirit as the author and by faith on our part. There must be the belief of the truth, without which there can be by true sanctification, nor perseverance in grace, nor obtaining of salvation. Faith and holiness must be joined together, as well as holiness and happiness; therefore our Saviour prayed for Peter that his faith might not fail (Luke 22 32), and for his disciples (John 17 17), Sanctify them by thy truth; thy word is truth.

    2. To the efficacy of the gospel call, v. 14. As they were chosen to salvation, so they were called thereunto by the gospel. Whom he did predestinate those he also called, Rom 8 30. The outward call of God is by the gospel; and this is rendered effectual by the inward operation of the Spirit. Note, Wherever the gospel comes it calls and invites men to the obtaining of glory; it is a call to honour and happiness, even the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glory he has purchased, and the glory he is possessed of, to be communicated unto those who believe in him and obey his gospel; such shall be with Christ, to behold his glory, and they shall be glorified with Christ and partake of his glory. Hereupon there follows,

    II. An exhortation to stedfastness and perseverance: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, v. 15. Observe, He does not say, "You are chosen to salvation, and therefore you may be careless and secure;" but therefore stand fast. God's grace in our election and vocation is so far from superseding our diligent care and endeavour that it should quicken and engage us to the greatest resolution and diligence. So the apostle John having told those to whom he wrote that they had received the anointing which should abide in them, and that they should abide in him (in Christ), subjoins this exhortation, Now abide in him, 1 John 2 27, 28. The Thessalonians are exhorted to stedfastness in their Christian profession, to hold fast the traditions which they had been taught, or the doctrine of the gospel, which had been delivered by the apostle, by word or epistle
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    William Hendriksen in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians points this out;
    Over against the damnation which awaits Satan's followers stands the salvation which is in store for God's children
    Paul wrote; For "we are obliged to give thanks to God always for you"
    see on 2thess.1:3
    For "brothers beloved of the Lord" cf. on 1 Thess. 1:4
    For "because God chose you" 1 Thess. 1:4
    For "salvation "see on 1 Thess. 5:8,9
    For "sanctification" see on 1Thess.4:3,7
    For "belief" see on 2 Thess.1:3,4,11; 1Thess.1:3
    For "truth" see on 2 Thess. 2:10,12
    For "calling" see on1 Thess.1:5; 2:12; 4:7; 5:24.
    For "with a view to obtaining" see on 1 Thess.5:9
    For "glory" see on 1 Thess. 2:12
    For "our Lord Jesus Christ" see on 1 Thess.1:1

    Paul said, we thank God for you, brothers in the faith, because in His sovereign, immutable election God from the beginning chose you to salvation -which is negatively, rescue from the guilt, pollution, and punishment of sin; positively, the entrance into the inheritance reserved for God's children-;
    a salvation which becomes your possession through the work of the Holy Spirit, that is, through sanctification.
     
    #2 Iconoclast, Apr 27, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,806
    Likes Received:
    215
    Faith:
    Baptist

    God the Father chooses all those whom the Spirit puts into the body of Christ thus the trinitarian signature is upon our salvation. This is what the scriptures means when they say things like the following;

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    And on and on.

    God's choice of sinners is just that simple. God is not prosecuting his will on the principle of sovereignty. There is no grace in sovereignty.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God is pursuing His redemptive will in the basis of love.
     
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    :Thumbsdown
    The King of Kings and Lord of Lord's. The Almighty God has no grace?

    God is Sovereign. Yet you say "there is no grace in sovereignty."

    Do you really believe what you wrote? :Thumbsdown
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I agree salvation is a trinitarian undertaking.
    It is known as the Covenant of Redemption.
    God is always sovereign. His Holy attributes are never out of focus.
    psa.115;
    3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
    He has set His love on a multitude of sinners.
    He saves them to the praise of his glory.
    It is simple in many ways.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,806
    Likes Received:
    215
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is no doctrine in scripture called the covenant of redemption. That is a made up doctrine and comes from the wisdom of men. It is an addition to scripture. It is human reasoning.

    God calls his work of redemption “ the New Testament.” It has a definite beginning and application to the people of God, the Hebrews, but it is without limits in it’ scope. The gentiles are made partakes of the spiritual blessings of this covenant with the Hebrews. This is called the gospel of God and it is the theme of the 13 letters of Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, established in the first sentence ever written with favor to gentiles in the canon of scripture, the epistle to the Romans. There we are introduced to the “gospel of God.” This is inclusive of all nations and every person in them.

    Hebrews 9:16-17
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. x


    Romans 1:1
    Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    The scope and definition of the gospel of God:


    Romans 16:24-27
    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

    Commentary:


    Romans 15:15-17
    15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
    16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
    17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.


    Romans 15:25-27
    25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

    I hope you get the point.
     
  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,806
    Likes Received:
    215
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Sovereignty in your mind is determinism. My statement stands. There is no grace in this principle of Devine dealing with men. Fortunately it is not true.
     
  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,806
    Likes Received:
    215
    Faith:
    Baptist
    According to you and me. But not according to most who post on this board. One of their foundational proof texts for their approach to God is the following;

    Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,507
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's funny how you say "not according to most who post on this board." Care to back that up with solid evidence. I hear Calvinist use this kind of blowhard rhetoric all the time to try and make their numbers seem more prominenant than they are. I wish for once that one of them would post their polling statistics. I also wish that people would keep their "Calvinist" threads in the Calvinist section. Yet, I find it's hard for them to not try to invade and overtake boards and every section in them. UGH!
     
  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,806
    Likes Received:
    215
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It would be hard to convince the Reformed Baptists on this Baptist board that the TULIP is not Baptist doctrine. That seems to me to be the conflict between Baptist sites like this. I, OTOH do not believe it is Baptist doctrine and there are other Baptist who post here that agrees with me on that. Where better to debate that subject than on a section of the board that is restricted to discussion of Baptists only if the true doctrines of the Bible is the issue between us. One thing is sure, it keeps the Presbyterians and Lutherans away and we don't have to deal with their false doctrines while we are trying to resolve our own.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Have you read Hebrews 12:15-17?

    See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

    Why is it that God chose Jacob, but not Esau?

    *Genesis 25:21-23*
    And Isaac prayed to the Lord for his wife, because she was barren. And the Lord granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived. The children struggled together within her, and she said, “If it is thus, why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord. And the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”

    At some point you have to acknowledge that God is Sovereign and his sovereign choice is an act of gracious love.

    Or, you can ignore God and think you make autonomous choices that are free from God's authority.
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    TULIP was only created as a direct response to the 5 points of the Remonstrants, which you conveniently ignore.

    Do you not believe that:
    All people are born in corruption.
    God saves us by no merit of our own.
    Jesus shed blood is only effective to those who believe.
    God's will cannot be thwarted.
    The evidence of saving faith is the perseverance in faith over a lifetime of trials.

    What, of those statements, makes you upset?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Does God let you wander like a free range cattle with no determination over your life? If so, have you simply ripped out all the prophecy from your Bible so as to not see God's determinative work in the history of His creation?
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
  15. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,636
    Likes Received:
    640
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Actually, the sovereignty of God is the Only Thing that can bring about peace in the heart
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,636
    Likes Received:
    640
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Yes He is, God should go ahead and let us go to hell, but He is a Sovereign and Loving God who saved us in spite of our sins
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    JD731,

    There is certainly a teaching of the Covenant of Redemption.
    Jd, what is a biblical covenant?
    here is a working definition
    ; God's self imposed obligation for the reconciliation of sinners to Himself.
    Does that work for you? Do you want to define covenant for us?



    Some object after this fashion.
    Teachers are given by God to the church.
    These teachers are men.
    These teachers have seen a description of this Covenant in the words of scripture.Jn 6:37-44, Hebrews 2:9-16


    The Covenant of Redemption was revealed by Jesus. God has one people for all time now, The Church that assembles on the last day.. The old and new Covenant were the progressive revelation of the Covenant of Redemption.

    Gentiles have been grafted in Rom.11.They are on equal footing, not second class citizens,EPH.2-3
    All mentions of the gospel are under the heading of the gospel of the Kingdom; Mk.1
    15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Yes, good verses

    Romans 1:1
    Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    The scope and definition of the gospel of God:


    Commentary:


    Romans 15:15-17
    15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
    16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
    17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.


    Romans 15:25-27
    25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

    I hope you get the point.[/QUOTE]

    These are good verses, and even better if we read this portion you by passed; rom.15
    8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

    9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

    10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

    11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

    12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

    13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Kinda. If God should then God would. :Wink
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree. It is a Presbyterian doctrine that ultimately seeks to confine God (put God in a specific box based on His actions).
     
  20. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,636
    Likes Received:
    640
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The covenant of redemption is the eternal agreement within the Godhead in which the Father appointed the Son to become incarnate, suffer, and die as a federal head of mankind to make an atonement for their sin. In return, the Father promised to raise Christ from the dead, glorify Him, and give Him a people.

    I just googled it
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...