How To scripturally Determine the Mind of God on the Modern Practice of Paraphrasing His Words

Conan said:

Yes, God chose to use the LXX mightily. Alexander conquered much of the known world and spread the Greek language and culture around the world. The New Testament often quotes the Old Testament in Greek. Look at the Old Testament quotations. They will a lot of times agree with the Greek more than the Hebrew. The LXX is in the KJV.

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Thank God for those Disobedient Jews down in Egypt who translated the Hebrew OT in Greek, eh? It was not the will of God that they were in Egypt.


Jeremiah 42:1-3
1 Then all the captains of the forces, and Johanan the son of Kareah, and Jezaniah the son of Hoshaiah, and all the people from the least even unto the greatest, came near,
2 And said unto Jeremiah the prophet, Let, we beseech thee, our supplication be accepted before thee, and pray for us unto the LORD thy God, even for all this remnant; (for we are left but a few of many, as thine eyes do behold us)
3 That the LORD thy God may shew us the way wherein we may walk, and the thing that we may do.


Jeremiah 42:19
The LORD hath said concerning you, O ye remnant of Judah; Go ye not into Egypt: know certainly that I have admonished you this day.

I do not understand your logic.

JD731 said:

You are answering questions that have not been asked and ignoring those that have.

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You do not answer questions that have been asked. You do not control or dictate which questions are to be asked and answered.

Instead of engaging in any serious discussion, you make condescending, negative comments.

Logos1560 said:

You do not answer questions that have been asked. You do not control or dictate which questions are to be asked and answered.

Instead of engaging in any serious discussion, you make condescending, negative comments.

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The forum allows us to start threads to deal with special subjects. You highjack every thread you decide to participate in and make it about the KJV only debate. You frame your responses in words to generate friction and to ensure argumentation. You are interested in no other subject and you participate in no other subjects.

You have become a person who has to be "put up" with.

JD731 said:

The forum allows us to start threads to deal with special subjects.

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Starting a thread does not put you in control of the discussion. It does not entitle you to try to dictate to or to control other posters. You tend to jump to wrong conclusions as you incorrectly make assumptions and negative accusations against other posters.

You seem to frame your one-sided topics to generate friction and negative attributes towards the word of God translated into present-day English.

JD731 said:

Thank God for those Disobedient Jews down in Egypt who translated the Hebrew OT in Greek, eh? It was not the will of God that they were in Egypt.


Jeremiah 42:1-3
1 Then all the captains of the forces, and Johanan the son of Kareah, and Jezaniah the son of Hoshaiah, and all the people from the least even unto the greatest, came near,
2 And said unto Jeremiah the prophet, Let, we beseech thee, our supplication be accepted before thee, and pray for us unto the LORD thy God, even for all this remnant; (for we are left but a few of many, as thine eyes do behold us)
3 That the LORD thy God may shew us the way wherein we may walk, and the thing that we may do.


Jeremiah 42:19
The LORD hath said concerning you, O ye remnant of Judah; Go ye not into Egypt: know certainly that I have admonished you this day.

I do not understand your logic.

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It was God's will.
Matthew 2:13

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

JD731 said:

While your comments in no way addresses the question, I think you are saying that all translations are paraphrases of something?

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In other words, "I will never answer any of your direct questions," but you must answer mine.

Piper said:

In other words, "I will never answer any of your direct questions," but you must answer mine.

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There are several paraphrases of the whole Bible available at the bookstore today. Paraphrasing of the scriptures is a modern phenomenon. Some people think this is a good idea and some people don't. If I am the person who is asked the question I will immediately say it is a bad idea and the main reason for it is my fear of God and his judgement. He says every one of his words are pure.

I am interested in what you think and how you came to your decision.

Conan said:

It was God's will.
Matthew 2:13

And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

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The nation of Israel collectively and Jesus Christ are corresponding "types." Not of the Bible but of God's son, both of whom shares the same experiences in the world.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.


circa 750 BC
Ho 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

You are looking here a a death, burial, and resurrection, and you are given a time frame.

See context.

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

God is dealing with his son in the above passages. In Jeremiah that I quoted, he is dealing with a remnant, who proved to be disobedient and became cursed by God for going down to Egypt. He promises to kill them down there. He is not calling them out. This happened circa 580 BC.

Jer 42:7 And it came to pass after ten days, that the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah.
8 Then called he Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces which were with him, and all the people from the least even to the greatest,
9 And said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, unto whom ye sent me to present your supplication before him;
10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
11 Be not afraid of the king of Babylon, of whom ye are afraid; be not afraid of him, saith the LORD: for I am with you to save you, and to deliver you from his hand.
12 And I will shew mercies unto you, that he may have mercy upon you, and cause you to return to your own land.
13 But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God,
14 Saying, No; but we will go into the land of Egypt, where we shall see no war, nor hear the sound of the trumpet, nor have hunger of bread; and there will we dwell:
15 And now therefore hear the word of the LORD, ye remnant of Judah; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; If ye wholly set your faces to enter into Egypt, and go to sojourn there;
16 Then it shall come to pass, that the sword, which ye feared, shall overtake you there in the land of Egypt, and the famine, whereof ye were afraid, shall follow close after you there in Egypt; and there ye shall die.

There is much more to this interaction between these two and it doesn't get better. This is where the group who translated the Hebrew into Greek came from. God did not send them to Egypt to do that.

Logos1560 said:

Starting a thread does not put you in control of the discussion. It does not entitle you to try to dictate to or to control other posters. You tend to jump to wrong conclusions as you incorrectly make assumptions and negative accusations against other posters.

You seem to frame your one-sided topics to generate friction and negative attributes towards the word of God translated into present-day English.

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The title of the thread assumes you will recognize the subject and try to interact within that framework.

Like so many of our "hidden agenda" threads, do we really think God wants us to present a corrupted gospel? Of course not.

Are we to think God does not want us to translate Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic texts into languages understandable to all nations? Off course not.

Are we to define one translation as "God's word" and all other efforts as "paraphrases" meaning corrupt versions? Of course not.

Does God want us to loosely translate His word, missing His intended message? Nope

Does God want us to do our best to present His word as accurately and as understandably as we can? Of course.

Does God want us to study God's word on our own, in addition to seeking wise counsel? Of course.

Does that mean we need to use a version we can understand, rather than one that has to be explained to us because it is in another language or an outdated vocabulary of our language? You bet.

JD731 said:

Some Baptists agree it is a good thing. Others not so much. How can we know?

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Without a definition of "paraphrase," the OP is ambiguous, and cannot be cogently answered. What is your definition of paraphrase?

I offer a couple of definitions:

“paraphrase n. v. an expression of the meaning of the word or phrase using other words or phrases, often in an attempt to make the meaning easier to understand. For example, to make someone (or something) appear or feel younger is a paraphrase of the English word rejuvenate. Dictionary definitions often take the form of paraphrases of the word they are trying to define.”[1]
(Jack Richards, Richard Schmidt, Heidi Kendricks, Youngkyu Kim, Longman Dictionary of Language Teaching and Applied Linguistics, 3rd ed., 2003, 384-385.)

“Paraphrase: The statement of the contents of a passage, text, etc., in the same or another language, without following the original text verbatim.”
Mario Pei and Frank Gaynor, Dictionary of Linguistics, 1967, 159.

JD731 said:

The nation of Israel collectively and Jesus Christ are corresponding "types." Not of the Bible but of God's son, both of whom shares the same experiences in the world.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.


circa 750 BC
Ho 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

You are looking here a a death, burial, and resurrection, and you are given a time frame.

See context.

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

God is dealing with his son in the above passages. In Jeremiah that I quoted, he is dealing with a remnant, who proved to be disobedient and became cursed by God for going down to Egypt. He promises to kill them down there. He is not calling them out. This happened circa 580 BC.

Jer 42:7 And it came to pass after ten days, that the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah.
8 Then called he Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces which were with him, and all the people from the least even to the greatest,
9 And said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, unto whom ye sent me to present your supplication before him;
10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
11 Be not afraid of the king of Babylon, of whom ye are afraid; be not afraid of him, saith the LORD: for I am with you to save you, and to deliver you from his hand.
12 And I will shew mercies unto you, that he may have mercy upon you, and cause you to return to your own land.
13 But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God,
14 Saying, No; but we will go into the land of Egypt, where we shall see no war, nor hear the sound of the trumpet, nor have hunger of bread; and there will we dwell:
15 And now therefore hear the word of the LORD, ye remnant of Judah; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; If ye wholly set your faces to enter into Egypt, and go to sojourn there;
16 Then it shall come to pass, that the sword, which ye feared, shall overtake you there in the land of Egypt, and the famine, whereof ye were afraid, shall follow close after you there in Egypt; and there ye shall die.

There is much more to this interaction between these two and it doesn't get better. This is where the group who translated the Hebrew into Greek came from. God did not send them to Egypt to do that.

Click to expand...

Let the King James Translators spell it out for you. From the preface to the KJV.
The Translators to the Reader
The Translation of the Old Testament out of the Hebrew into Greek
While God would be known only in Jacob, and have his Name great in Israel, and in none other place, while the dew lay on Gideon's fleece only, and all the earth besides was dry; then for one and the same people, which spake all of them the language of Canaan, that is, Hebrew, one and the same original in Hebrew was sufficient. But, when the fulness of time drew near, that the Sun of righteousness, the Son of God should come into the world, whom God ordained to be a reconciliation through faith in his blood, not of the Jew only, but also of the Greek, yea, of all them that were scattered abroad; then lo, it pleased the Lord to stir up the spirit of a Greek Prince (Greek for descent and language) even of Ptolemy Philadelph King of Egypt, to procure the translating of the Book of God out of Hebrew into Greek. This is the translation of the Seventy Interpreters, commonly so called, which prepared the way for our Saviour among the Gentiles by written preaching, as Saint John Baptist did among the Jews by vocal. For the Grecians being desirous of learning, were not wont to suffer books of worth to lie moulding in Kings' libraries, but had many of their servants, ready scribes, to copy them out, and so they were dispersed and made common. Again, the Greek tongue was well known and made familiar to most inhabitants in Asia, by reason of the conquest that there the Grecians had made, as also by the Colonies, which thither they had sent. For the same causes also it was well understood in many places of Europe, yea, and of Africa too. Therefore the word of God being set forth in Greek, becometh hereby like a candle set upon a candlestick, which giveth light to all that are in the house, or like a proclamation sounded forth in the market place, which most men presently take knowledge of; and therefore that language was fittest to contain the Scriptures, both for the first Preachers of the Gospel to appeal unto for witness, and for the learners also of those times to make search and trial by. It is certain, that that Translation was not so sound and so perfect, but that it needed in many places correction; and who had been so sufficient for this work as the Apostles or Apostolic men? Yet it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to them, to take that which they found, (the same being for the greatest part true and sufficient) rather than by making a new, in that new world and green age of the Church, to expose themselves to many exceptions and cavillations, as though they made a Translation to serve their own turn, and therefore bearing witness to themselves, their witness not to be regarded. This may be supposed to be some cause, why the Translation of the Seventy was allowed to pass for current. Notwithstanding, though it was commended generally, yet it did not fully content the learned, no not of the Jews. For not long after Christ, Aquila fell in hand with a new Translation, and after him Theodotion, and after him Symmachus; yea, there was a fifth and a sixth edition, the Authors whereof were not known. These with the Seventy made up the Hexapla and were worthily and to great purpose compiled together by Origen. Howbeit the Edition of the Seventy went away with the credit, and therefore not only was placed in the midst by Origen (for the worth and excellency thereof above the rest, as Epiphanius gathered) but also was used by the Greek fathers for the ground and foundation of their Commentaries. Yea, Epiphanius above named doth attribute so much unto it, that he holdeth the Authors thereof not only for Interpreters, but also for Prophets in some respect; and Justinian the Emperor enjoining the Jews his subjects to use especially the Translation of the Seventy, rendereth this reason thereof, because they were as it were enlightened with prophetical grace. Yet for all that, as the Egyptians are said of the Prophet to be men and not God, and their horses flesh and not spirit [Isa 31:3]; so it is evident, (and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventy were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to add to the Original, and sometimes to take from it; which made the Apostles to leave them many times, when they left the Hebrew, and to deliver the sense thereof according to the truth of the word, as the spirit gave them utterance. This may suffice touching the Greek Translations of the Old Testament

The Translators to the Reader

I think it is also helpful to distinguish between a paraphrastic rendering (a phrase that is paraphrased within a more literal Bible version), and a paraphrased Bible (a version which uses paraphrase from start to finish).

All Bible translations (except maybe Young's Literal Version ) paraphrase some or most idioms (not necessarily other figures of speech) at a minimum. However, versions like The Message or The Living Bible have a philosophy of paraphrasing, and thus usually twist the Word of God into their own creation.

Here is a statement from my lecture on paraphrasing that might be helpful: Paraphrasing looks at the text primarily as a unit of sentences, not individual words and grammatical structures. The translator then rewords the source text in his own words and syntax without much regard to the grammar and syntax of the original document. This makes paraphrasing more subjective (often much more) than literal methods, since it makes the translator the authority rather than the text.

JD731 said:

Paraphrasing of the scriptures is a modern phenomenon.

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The First Tome or Volume of the Paraphrase of Erasmus upon the New Testament (1548). A Facsimile Reproduction with an Introduction by John N. Wall, Jr. Delmar, NY: Scholars' Facsimiles and Reprints, 1975.

JD731 said:

Get this now, there are people who wants us to think that God chose an error laden Greek language paraphrase, if a translation is nothing more than a paraphrase by men, the LXX, over his own inspired words in Hebrew as he preached to Hebrews of his coming being the fulfillment of Hebrew prophesy.

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The LXX is not a paraphrase. "The various books in the Septuagint vary as to literal and free translation. Examples of free (or even sometimes paraphrastic) translations are Job, Proverbs, Isaiah, Daniel, and Esther; literal translations are the books of Judges (the B text), Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles" (Metzger, The Bible in Translation, 2001, p. 17).

JD731 said:

There are several paraphrases of the whole Bible available at the bookstore today. Paraphrasing of the scriptures is a modern phenomenon. Some people think this is a good idea and some people don't. If I am the person who is asked the question I will immediately say it is a bad idea and the main reason for it is my fear of God and his judgement. He says every one of his words are pure.

I am interested in what you think and how you came to your decision.

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I am interested in which translation you use. Please tell us.

Piper said:

I am interested in which translation you use. Please tell us.

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If it is not an effort to present KJVonlyism, I will have another donut!

Code words: paraphrase = not the inspired KJV translation
Modern Practice = Non-KJV translation efforts

A bogus version of the definition of paraphrase:

JD731 said:

There are several paraphrases of the whole Bible available at the bookstore today.

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In some bookstores, there may be only one [not several] paraphrase available--the Message.

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Van said:

Like so many of our "hidden agenda" threads, do we really think God wants us to present a corrupted gospel? Of course not.

Are we to think God does not want us to translate Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic texts into languages understandable to all nations? Off course not.

Are we to define one translation as "God's word" and all other efforts as "paraphrases" meaning corrupt versions? Of course not.

Does God want us to loosely translate His word, missing His intended message? Nope

Does God want us to do our best to present His word as accurately and as understandably as we can? Of course.

Does God want us to study God's word on our own, in addition to seeking wise counsel? Of course.

Does that mean we need to use a version we can understand, rather than one that has to be explained to us because it is in another language or an outdated vocabulary of our language? You bet.

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Has Van given his uniformed opinions? Of course.

Is it worth the bandwidth that is required to post it? Of course not.

Van said:

Does that mean we need to use a version we can understand, rather than one that has to be explained to us because it is in another language or an outdated vocabulary of our language? You bet.

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Since I am here to help, Van, when you come across words and phrases you do not understand in the KJV, feel free to PM me and I will be there for you. I have not run across anything yet that I can't read and comprehend and if you folk have, I am surprised you admit it on a public forum. Some of you say you understand the Greek language. When I was a bit younger there would be times someone would say something to me that I did not understand and I would sometimes respond, "That's Greek to me." Most of the time they got it. I think we could expect that group to understand the English language.