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Was it the Choice of God That You Were Born Into the World
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
God is sovereign in that He either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Scripture certainly tells us of some of the things God chose to cause within the realm of what He allows to happen. Christ was put to death according to His predetermined plan.
However, to claim nothing happens by chance or by circumstance brought forth at least in part by human en-devour is unbiblical nonsense.
With regard to the specific question of the OP's title, God chose to create humanity with the capacity to reproduce. Thus ultimately God chose that we or people like us, would be born into human society. But as Salty observed, our parents played a volitional role, and without their choice we would not be here.
However, to claim nothing happens by chance or by circumstance brought forth at least in part by human en-devour is unbiblical nonsense.
With regard to the specific question of the OP's title, God chose to create humanity with the capacity to reproduce. Thus ultimately God chose that we or people like us, would be born into human society. But as Salty observed, our parents played a volitional role, and without their choice we would not be here.
It seems to me by reading the texts that deals with the subject of the thread that God writes the names of those who are born in Adam in a book with there being a very real possibility of having them blotted out during the course of their lives. It seems to be as a singular event near the end of a particular time period that God is bring to a close and certain men have a particular responsibility towards God wherein they fail. Think about all but 8 people in the whole world who perished in the flood during Noah's days. What about a whole generation who had an opportunity to enter into the promised land, a picture of God's salvation rest, during the days of Moses and only two were allowed to go in and the rest died the death. And what about all those Jews who were massacred by Titus at the end of a different 40 years of opportunity for them to enter into God's rest of salvation as a nation, but refused. All these names would have obviously been blotted out of the book of life and they would be assigned to eternal death. It is reported that Titus killed more than a million Jews and demolished the city of God, Jerusalem with it's temple and dispersed them from their land, ending their national identity for nearly 2000 years. Jesus the prophet of God foretold them and cut off the opportunity of some to ever be saved. Read about it here at the showdown in Galilee.
First, here is what Jesus said to them in their cities in Galilee.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
How do Calvinists process these words of Jesus, who knows all things?
Mt 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
This is the occasion of the blotting out of the names of these men, I think, and their opportunity to enter into rest is over now because of this deed.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (aion = age), neither in the world to come. (one age ended at the cross and another began at the resurrection. Forty years later a nation was dead).
Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
I don't see Calvinists believing anything that is written in the scriptures and I do not see them believing in a comparison of history and the scriptures.
All these men that were left of the generation of Jesus were destroyed in the siege of Titus and prophesy was fulfilled.
The generation of Jesus was 70 years. Psa 90:10.
Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
First, here is what Jesus said to them in their cities in Galilee.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
How do Calvinists process these words of Jesus, who knows all things?
Mt 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
This is the occasion of the blotting out of the names of these men, I think, and their opportunity to enter into rest is over now because of this deed.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (aion = age), neither in the world to come. (one age ended at the cross and another began at the resurrection. Forty years later a nation was dead).
Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
I don't see Calvinists believing anything that is written in the scriptures and I do not see them believing in a comparison of history and the scriptures.
All these men that were left of the generation of Jesus were destroyed in the siege of Titus and prophesy was fulfilled.
The generation of Jesus was 70 years. Psa 90:10.
Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Not only was it God's will that I was born... I was God's will alone that I was saved... God makes up his own family!... Brother Glen
Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Not only was it God's will that I was born... I was God's will alone that I was saved... God makes up his own family!... Brother Glen
Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
In your theological scheme there is a very real possibility that your wife and children are lost and on their way to the second death in the lake of fire for all eternity because they are not chosen and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. In your house the gospel of Jesus Christ has no power to save them The best thing you can do is rejoice and praise God for sending them there. You Calvinists are some really sick puppies if you ask me.
I know what you are saying I really do... And I have heard it all my life but there is scripture that means more to me than your words and accusations and I worship a God that tells me the same... And Christ is the Savior of his chosen children 100% without the interference of men... Brother Glen
Matthew 19: 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Hmmm. Does God know who will come into being and when?
I know what you are saying I really do... And I have heard it all my life but there is scripture that means more to me than your words and accusations and I worship a God that tells me the same... And Christ is the Savior of his chosen children 100% without the interference of men... Brother Glen
Matthew 19: 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
How does a man like you obey this command and why should he? You couldn’t fix the problem if you found one. How would you prove your own self?
How do you do it?
if you are stumped by my question it should give you great concern. Have you read the epistle, Second Corinthians? It tells about false apostles coming as apostles of light from God and persuading simple minded men to follow their perversion, subtle as it was.
Calvin was a false prophet and the teachers of his doctrines are false teachers. The issue between Paul, the real apostle and these false apostles was how one is saved.
Who are you believing?
Wrong Christ has all of the power to save whom He wills. It is very humbling to know, understand and believe it.
we all deserve hell
it is a kind and gracious God who saves anyone
when we have lost family, we pray for them, love them, demonstrate the Gospel to them, and share the Gospel w them and not in a Billegrent way.
the Biblical God can and does save independent of man. He grants them faith (election, and regeneration, or the New Birth as Jesus said in John 3) and saves them to the uttermost.
the God you espouse is in bondage to the will of man, unable to do anything until man believes.
LOL. I'm not stumped, just want to know how you're thinking. So, how does JD examine himself? Also, if you could answer my first question, that'd be cool.
Oh I have time and time again... Are you calling Jesus a liar?... If God needs man to save one he sent one... Jesus Christ... I believe Jesus saved all God gave him, given in the counsel of the Godhead in eternity but I don't believe in Calvinistic view of a few in election, only Sovereign Grace election, I believe... This is election!... Brother Glen
Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Only a man who is fascinated with himself and believes he is a special creature above all others would fall for Calvinism’s false doctrines. This is especially true since the one promoting himself with possessing this special status can nowhere point to the scriptures where God affirms that you are. We only have your word on it. Therefore you can only point to yourself and prove it by your works. Your religion is as much a works based religion as is the Watchtower Society.
This entire argument of election is addressed as one of the most important discussions in the epistles of the NT. The Jews held the exact same opinion about themselves as the modern Calvinists. They looked to their own election as being the only sinners God had any interest in saving. The generation who taught this false view of God ended up being damned.
Pray for them? WHY? Do you believe the “L” in TULIP or don’t you? You seem to be as confuse as a termite in a yo-yo.
I would not chance going to the grave having never been obedient to the faith and trusting someone else to believe for me. I am sure that will not work out well for the person who tries it.
Romans 16:24-27
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
Yes you are stumped. If you weren’t you would not be asking me for the answer so you can be prepared for the next person who asks you this question. You would just answer the question if you had one.
Look, I am not trying to beat up on any of you Calvinists, I am merely trying to get you to think and believe what you read in the scriptures in their proper context. That is all.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Are you saying those that hold to the doctrines of grace (Calvinism as you say) are not saved?
peace to you
A story of a birth that God intended but did not happen because a man prevented it. It angered God. Take the time to read this story.
Genesis 38:1-5
1 And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah.
2 And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her.
3 And she conceived, and bare a son; and he called his name Er.
4 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan.
5 And she yet again conceived, and bare a son; and called his name Shelah: and he was at Chezib, when she bare him.
Genesis 38:6-7
6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
Genesis 38:8-10
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife,
that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also
Anyone may read the rest of the story but this incident proves more than one biblical truth. Number one - men can and often do interfere in God’s purposes through a birth.
Genesis 38:1-5
1 And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah.
2 And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her.
3 And she conceived, and bare a son; and he called his name Er.
4 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan.
5 And she yet again conceived, and bare a son; and called his name Shelah: and he was at Chezib, when she bare him.
Genesis 38:6-7
6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
Genesis 38:8-10
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife,
that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also
Anyone may read the rest of the story but this incident proves more than one biblical truth. Number one - men can and often do interfere in God’s purposes through a birth.
No, I am saying that Fundamentalist Baptists and other Christians are likely not saved if teaching that hearing and believing from the heart the gospel of Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved. These men, of whom I am one, do not believe that one must be elected for salvation before the world was created but that God will justify any sinner who will come to him by faith in name of Jesus Christ. I was not elected before the foundation of the world to be saved from my sins.
The Reformed have another requirement for salvation called election while they take away a requirement of mine of believing the gospel to be saved. Someone is wrong and you think it is me. If what you preach is true then I agree that what We preach is so different that it can’t be true.